US Constitution Discussion, Part 13: Amendment II

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Deacon
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Re: US Constitution Discussion, Part 13: Amendment II

Post by Deacon » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:50 pm

This has probably already been mentioned before in some form or another, but I came across this link and thought it may be handy for later.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: US Constitution Discussion, Part 13: Amendment II

Post by Deacon » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:20 pm

I don't know if this would be better kept in its own thread, but it certainly applies to the Second Amendment:

Concealed Carry Permits Are Life Savers

Rep. Cliff Stearns (R-FL) lays out the case for concealed carry permits and then includes an announcement:
That is why I, along with Representative Rich Boucher (D-Va.) introduced H.R. 197, the National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act. Our legislation proposes a federal law that would entitle any person with a valid state-issued concealed carry permit to carry in any other state, as follows: In a state that issues carry permits, its laws would apply. In states that don’t issue carry permits, the Federal law providing a "bright-line" standard would permit carrying in places other than police stations; courthouses; public polling places; meetings of state, county, or municipal governing bodies; schools; passenger areas of airports; etc. The bright-light standard in itself is not a license -- the individual would still have to possess a valid state permit issued by their state of residence. It doesn't make sense to me for Americans to forfeit their safety because they happen to be on vacation or on a business trip. This legislation would greatly enhance the safety of this nation's ever-increasing mobile society.
While the Amendment discussed in this thread has been trampled and infringed to a truly shocking degree when one stops and thinks about it, I think this bill helps restore a small part of its intended effect and helps ease the minds of those of us law-abiding citizens who wish to remain such. Now we just have to figure out how to get it through people's heads that allowing license holders to carry in and around schools and hospitals and such is a good thing.

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: US Constitution Discussion, Part 13: Amendment II

Post by collegestudent22 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:30 am

Lucksi wrote:
Deacon wrote:When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
Or the police might already be there and then shoot you for having a gun
They were on his property illegally. He had a right to defend himself. Those police should not have been cleared of wrongdoing. They should have been jailed.

Also, why is that incident directly related to the "War on Drugs"? Could the same incident not have occurred during an organized crime sting (perhaps they would have been selling illegal weapons instead of drugs)? Regardless of the benefits and problems of the "drug war", this event is out on the fringes. You can only relate it due to the fact that the cops were attempting a drug sting operation. It could have been ANY kind of sting operation.
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Re: US Constitution Discussion, Part 13: Amendment II

Post by Deacon » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:31 am

I think it'd be very interesting to be a fly on the wall watching that encounter to see how it went down.

That said, those kinds of articles really bother me when they may well have good points but they get lost in a sea of superlatives and immature writing, attempting to manipulate your emotions without the subtlety necessary to pull it off smoothly.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: US Constitution Discussion, Part 13: Amendment II

Post by Martin Blank » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:34 am

If I show up at your door, chances are you did something to bring me there.

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Re: US Constitution Discussion, Part 13: Amendment II

Post by collegestudent22 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:18 pm

Since the US Constitution doesn't define the term militia (although, I don't think it needs to), I suppose I will go by my State Constitution (WY). As a resident of WY between 17 and 70, I am a member of the militia. Thus, I claim the right to carry a weapon anywhere I please, thank you very much.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: US Constitution Discussion, Part 13: Amendment II

Post by StruckingFuggle » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:55 pm

A: Goddamn states. :x

B: I would love to see you try that. Seriously. Walk with your gun into, say, a federal courthouse and then claim your state-level constitution trumps federal law. I am really curious to see how this case plays out. You may even get a favorable supreme court ruling.
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Re: US Constitution Discussion, Part 13: Amendment II

Post by collegestudent22 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:32 am

Obviously, I wouldn't claim that it overrules federal law on federal land. However, on state land, it would. And ANY state land, thanks to the full faith and credit clause of the US Constitution. In fact, I would argue that the full faith and credit clause means that if I get a concealed carry permit in WY, I can carry a concealed weapon anywhere I wish, outside of federal land (national parks, federal courthouses, military bases, etc.) as long as I follow the laws of the state (not on school grounds, etc.). They can't stop me from carrying concealed out in public unless they don't allow anyone to carry in public - meaning they violate the federal constitution.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: US Constitution Discussion, Part 13: Amendment II

Post by Deacon » Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:28 pm

Here's something to think about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu5j8C2Hrc0
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: US Constitution Discussion, Part 13: Amendment II

Post by JermCool » Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:38 pm

OK - that phonecall will be keeping me awake for hours. Thanks.
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Re: US Constitution Discussion, Part 13: Amendment II

Post by StruckingFuggle » Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:51 pm

You know ... it will still happen unless you have the government mandate that everyone carry a gun.


(Personally, I'm still not even entirely sold on the idea particularly reducing crime anyway).
"He who lives by the sword dies by my arrow."

"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."

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Re: US Constitution Discussion, Part 13: Amendment II

Post by Deacon » Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:51 pm

I'm pretty sure you're impervious to the idea regardless.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: US Constitution Discussion, Part 13: Amendment II

Post by StruckingFuggle » Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:25 pm

I'd believe it reduces some specific kinds of crime (which does not include all kinds of unjustified homicide), within a specific realm of allowance - but that's never the claim. The claim is it "reduces crime", with the disingenuous implication that it's a more blanket statement than would be reality, and I still believe that most studies only looked at the specific place of 'relevance' and didn't look for displacement of crime.
"He who lives by the sword dies by my arrow."

"In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of nobility and heritage and honor to cover up every bit of genocide, assassination, and massacre. At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power."

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Re: US Constitution Discussion, Part 13: Amendment II

Post by collegestudent22 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:45 pm

It does reduce almost all kinds of violent crime, however. There is a reason that the states with the lowest murder rates are also the states that allow firearms most freely.

And really? You expect every conversation on the subject to go into a long discussion of what crimes exactly it reduces? "Reduces crime" is plenty - considering OVERALL crime rates are reduced. Sure, you can get into which kinds of crimes exactly are reduced - but that isn't really conducive to the argument.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: US Constitution Discussion, Part 13: Amendment II

Post by collegestudent22 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:55 pm

Lucksi, what exactly are you talking about?

I can point to many examples of more frequent firearm carrying reduces violent crime. Wyoming has the 5th lowest murder rate in the US and has some of the easiest access to concealed carry permits. The states with the most stringent laws have MUCH higher rates (see: NY). I don't know any stats for the rest of the world - but I would assume that they would be fairly close if they were to allow firearms in public as much as the US does in some states.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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