Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

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NorthernComfort
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:17 pm

To where I still didn't say minorities. But you came up with that.
Sacarsm alert! Yes, that was first time the conversation touched upon racism and minorities, and I brought it up. The other explanations simply don't ring true: namely, that I am completely over this conversation and am generalizing about the thousands of words you've already said, instead of getting involved in a semantic pissing contest about whether you "called me racist" or "implied I was racist" or "said I was supporting racists" or am "on the wrong side of history" .... Either way, great semantic detective work, and I'm really convinced this is a solid case.
And I'm not against free speech, but you've had absolutely no problem--none whatsoever--accusing me of just the opposite for a while now.
I've done no such thing. You're entitled to your opinions and beliefs, and so am I. We disagree on them, and I have tried to illustrate exactly where we disagree, so as to simplify ending this conversation. I'm not sure where you actually come down on free speech- you don't want me to continue holding my opinion on political correctness, as it "concedes the point" to Trump ... it's a bit silly, but no, I don't think you are threatening my right to free speech. I think you're being a ninny.
Enable. You enable them.
Blah blah blah... I'm so tired of this particular line. It's bullshit. I do not enable the alt-right. I am sitting on my couch typing on the Internet to another person who I've known for a decade and neither of us are Trump supporters.

Go on and tell me how I'm enabling them.
Two things I've not even come close to doing in this thread: -Accusing you of committing a crime
Again, I think being on the wrong side of history is a pretty big faux pas. I don't really care for the semantic pissing contest around whether it is a crime or a thought crime, but the phrase "on the wrong side of history" is usually reserved for racists and war criminals.
-Suggesting there should be laws against thought of any kind.
No shit, thought crime is an expression, not an implication that you are seeking legislation.
I don't know if that's what this is. I'm a Libertarian after all, and your position on this particular issue seems pretty socially conservative.
Yeah, because you seem to be only passingly familiar with this subject and you doggedly refuse to admit that criticism has come from both the left and right. Are you ever going to admit this simple fact?

From the New York Times, 1990:
NYT wrote:But more than an earnest expression of belief, "politically correct" has become a sarcastic jibe used by those, conservatives and classical liberals alike, to describe what they see as a growing intolerance, a closing of debate, a pressure to conform to a radical program or risk being accused of a commonly reiterated trio of thought crimes: sexism, racism and homophobia.
And yes, I view myself a classic liberal.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:25 pm

NorthernComfort wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:17 pm Go on and tell me how I'm enabling them.
See this is my problem: I have. For weeks. I've told you in great detail. Your refusal to consider this point in any way proves that this is a lie:
NorthernComfort wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:23 pm It just takes a willingness to consider my viewpoint as valid. I’m confident that I understand where you are coming from- I disagree with your conclusions, but I have considered them from your eyes, and processed your arguments through that lens.
You wouldn't have said anything you said in your last post if this were true. Not one word. Now you want this to end? Admit that you're not interested in what I have to say. For someone who wants to walk away you seem dying to have the last word. I am just so glad you can pat yourself on the back for being a good guy while just dismissing every damn word I have to say. Certainly, lecturing me on why I'm not respecting you enough is favorable to treating me like I didn't just make this entire line of thinking up overnight. If I sound pissed it's because an awful lot of my time has been wasted writing what you clearly might as well just read as "blah blah blah insert whatever you WANT me to have said here."

And you should also admit the definition you're working from basically says "political correctness" is whatever its critics say it is, which is central to my point. But that would involve treating me like I have a point.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:39 pm

And you should also admit the definition you're working from basically says "political correctness" is whatever its critics say it is, which is central to my point. But that would involve treating me like I have a point.
Because politically correct, the phrase, is inherently critical. It's a pejorative phrase. Yeah, it is what its critics say it is. Get over it.

So if you don't know that, or you are trying to define PC as something other than that, yeah, your points on PC are going to be pretty flimsy.

You certainly aren't the only one who has spent too much time writing too many words on this topic. How many articles have I cited for you to take a gander at? And you send me a blog post about "intellectual diversity" that is not about PC at all, and in fact the author acknowledges my very points on PC being "a real problem" - which you still refuse to acknowledge? The points have all flown over your head at some point and it's just not my responsibility to go find them for you.
See this is my problem: I have. For weeks. I've told you in great detail. Your refusal to consider this point in any way proves that this is a lie:
Okay. Language time!

To enable something means to make it possible, or give somebody the authority to do something.

You are referring to Trump's administration abusing their powers to attack the 1st amendment, among other things, but that's primarily what we've been touching on.

How am I making it possible for the Trump administration to abuse their powers to attack the 1st amendment?

And yeah, you'd better have examples of how I am personally enabling this, because you've said it ad nauseum. Not some wishy washy "you think this so you won't do xyz in the future" ... that is thought crime bullshit. I want to hear how I am tangibly, in the third dimension of reality, enabling Trump. Or seriously, shove that talking point right back where it came from.

And yeah, I've tried hard to keep returning to a baseline of civility, but I think I ran out of patience somewhere between being told who I do and do not support, what side of history I am on (the wrong one!), and the downright embarrassing spectacle of you crowing about who said minorities in what context.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by Deacon » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:50 pm

NorthernComfort wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:17 pmGo on and tell me how I'm enabling them.
You really don't understand his argument still? Political correctness is a myth, a construct invented decades ago by neonazis to undermine and marginalize young people and academics who live in a campus-centered bubble. By you being so ridiculous as to fall for this trickery, you empower them to be racists and win.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:58 pm

Deacon, I wish you were actually off the mark.

Let us never forget this great thread, where we learned:

* NC believed the Left is long overdue for introspection about political correctness
* NC thought we faced a dire threat with Trump and the alt-right, and laid some of the blame at Democrats who spent too much focus on political correctness at the cost of other issues
* The Cid pointed out that this just wasn't true
* NC actually secretly supported the alt-right
* And NC enabled Trump's fascist plans, and secretly helped the Nazis win.
* The only true opponents of the alt-right are those who twist their brains to always disagree with their enemy.

What a plot twist!
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:02 pm

NorthernComfort wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:39 pm Because politically correct, the phrase, is inherently critical. It's a pejorative phrase. Yeah, it is what its critics say it is. Get over it.
This is critical to my point that you continue to ignore because it suits you.
NorthernComfort wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:39 pm How am I making it possible for the Trump administration to abuse their powers to attack the 1st amendment?
Here come a bunch of words you're going to never acknowledge because you see me as a hostile entity. Yet you keep demanding. I'm getting beyond insulted. Why demand I make a point you won't ever listen to?

I don't know if you've noticed, but it doesn't take much in the way of "people agreeing with the current president" to give the man an impression that he has a mandate to do whatever he wishes.

Personally, I think he lays that on pretty thick. But, as we've established, nothing I believe is even worth talking about.

Now, yet again, I am not accusing you of supporting the man in general. However, in general you tend to agree with people on that side of politics regarding this point. Not every point, but THIS ONE. The one we are talking about. Nothing more, but let's stop pretending it's less so we can make me look like an idiot. I know that irks you and upsets you as though it were some kind of an insult, but I assure you it's neither intended that way nor is it a cheap shot to suggest it.

The more people rail against the concept of political correctness, which was a central piece of the man's campaign, the more it seems that there is some kind of a mandate there, or at least something he might call one.

If, as you continue to state, political correctness is largely to blame for Trump's election (letting more sinister things off the hook, but I digress), and we have a president who has no issue overstepping the boundaries of his office to spite his perceived enemies, it might not be an unreasonable belief--though you insist over and over again that it is for some damn reason--that this particular Commander in Chief would use that movement away from political correctness to hinder or silence his enemies.

That is not a slippery slope based belief. That is based on actual things that have already happened, and we're only two months in.

Now, back to something you finally admitted and why it's so important to my point:
NorthernComfort wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:39 pm Yeah, it is what its critics say it is.
Which means it can be anything its critics don't like. Which is why I keep citing the extreme ends of it, the Gamergate and Ghostbusters and related morons. Not to lump you in with them, but to show you the dangers of railing against a nebulous concept that is defined by people who rail against it. Many of them throw every concept related to diversity in the PC pot. Because they can, because that's how it works.

So if you don't like a concept, all you have to do is say "political correctness" and people will come running to your defense. I've established already, and we've all seen examples of it, that this is a thing people absolutely do. Fighting political correctness means giving them the floor over people who you deem too PC.
NorthernComfort wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:39 pm the downright embarrassing spectacle of you crowing about who said minorities in what context.
EMBARRASSING!!!!

Admit it. Admit that even if I touch on something real you're not going to acknowledge it. But you'll accuse ME of doing that so you get to look like you're on the up and up and I'm playing dirty here. It's way better than actually taking a second, just one, to actually consider where I'm coming from.

You never have. Not once. Yet you lied, through your TEETH, and said you did. That was a blatant lie. Did you think I was going to buy it?! And I'M THE ONE WHO'S EMBARRASSING?!
Let us never forget this great thread, where we learned:
Apparently what we learned is that I'm such a jerk it's not even worth considering what I say, but it's right to continue to demand that I defend myself against people who will never consider my defense.

All I've learned is that anything that even remotely puts you on the wrong side of being "progressive" seems to trigger you. Is that your way of proving this stuff exists, by exemplifying it?

Your summary just proves the disdain you have for everything I say. None of that applies. None.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:08 pm

The Cid wrote:
NC wrote:Because politically correct, the phrase, is inherently critical. It's a pejorative phrase. Yeah, it is what its critics say it is. Get over it.
This is critical to my point that you continue to ignore because it suits you.
You're basing your argument on some alternate definition of political correctness, and guess what, that is the definition of trying to change the facts to suit your case. PC:
Dictionary wrote:the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.
1990, New York Times:
The term "politically correct," with its suggestion of Stalinist orthodoxy, is spoken more with irony and disapproval than with reverence.
1991, New York Times
As defined by its critics, political correctness is a widespread tendency to use censorship, intimidation and other weapons abhorrent to the American political process to support popular demands for measures to enforce sexual, racial and ethnic equality.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:10 pm

NorthernComfort wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:08 pm You're basing your argument on some alternate definition of political correctness,
I was using yours.

So you're just going to keep ignoring me then. But what a good guy for "considering my point of view" even though you never came close to doing so.
Last edited by The Cid on Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:10 pm

The Cid wrote:I don't know if you've noticed, but it doesn't take much in the way of "people agreeing with the current president" to give the man an impression that he has a mandate to do whatever he wishes.
Seriously, more of this wishy washy thought crime bullshit? I don't care if you feel offended, your line of argument is downright idiotic.

Trump: Gee, I'd like to crush the 1st amendment.
Bannon: I dunno, you are the President, but I'm not sure if you have the authority.
Trump: Hmm... do we have a mandate?
Bannon: Hmm, this liberal guy in Brooklyn who worked on Hillary's campaign doesn't think political correctness is an imaginary menace.
Trump: CARTE BLANCHE! I AM DICTATOR FOR LIFE NOW!
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:12 pm

NorthernComfort wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:10 pm Seriously, more of this wishy washy thought crime bullshit? I don't care if you feel offended, your line of argument is downright idiotic.
You're right. "Both the left and right agree with me" doesn't sound like something he'd ever say. And he'd never try to overstep his boundaries, he's so respectful of both the office and his opposition.

Keep ignoring me. But "thoughtcrime" is another thing YOU decided, not me. Of course, all thought under the "PC" banner, you're against that, but it's not thoughtcrime to you. Nope. You're so accepting.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:14 pm

EMBARRASSING!!!!

Admit it. Admit that even if I touch on something real you're not going to acknowledge it. But you'll accuse ME of doing that so you get to look like you're on the up and up and I'm playing dirty here. It's way better than actually taking a second, just one, to actually consider where I'm coming from.

You never have. Not once. Yet you lied, through your TEETH, and said you did. That was a blatant lie. Did you think I was going to buy it?! And I'M THE ONE WHO'S EMBARRASSING?!
LOL... this is really case in point about how political correctness poisons discourse. What exactly do you want me to admit here? That I mentioned race after we spent several weeks discussing race? OH HEAVENS. HE'S A NAZI.
The Cid wrote:And he'd never try to overstep his boundaries, he's so respectful of both the office and his opposition.
Yea, and thats MY fucking fault? Because I THINK MY OWN THOUGHTS? Christ on a stick.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:18 pm

NorthernComfort wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:14 pm Yea, and thats MY fucking fault? Because I THINK MY OWN THOUGHTS?
No, it's the thought of people who think of things their opponents put under the banner of political correctness. Clearly. All our problems are the fault of people whose critics dismissively define them as bullies.
NorthernComfort wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:14 pm That I mentioned race after we spent several weeks discussing race? OH HEAVENS. HE'S A NAZI.
We aren't discussing race, because discussions of race being put under the "PC" banner is something racists do and you're not one of them. You're talking about much more extreme examples of what would be deemed political correctness, things that have given rise to buzzwords like "safe spaces."
NorthernComfort wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:14 pm this is really case in point about how political correctness poisons discourse.
Because you brought up race unprompted as though you were preemptively defending against me calling you a racist, even though that was clearly not my intent, that's PC culture's fault.

Damn me and my thoughtcrimes for triggering you over and over again by making you think I'm going to slur you with the dreaded R word.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:25 pm

I'm done. I wrote a 7000 fucking word post last week and I don't think a single word of it got through your blind fury.

I think your "enabling" argument is ridiculous. I think the notion that I "support" the alt-right or Trump in any way is ridiculous.
We aren't discussing race, because discussions of race being put under the "PC" banner is something racists do and you're not one of them. You're talking about much more extreme examples of what would be deemed political correctness, things that have given rise to buzzwords like "safe spaces."
OK, go back over the last month of discussion, and we've clearly been discussing race, racists, white supremacists, etc. Especially re: whether or not I support them in some way, which is your inflammatory and absurd talking point.
Because you brought up race unprompted as though you were preemptively defending against me calling you a racist, even though that was clearly not my intent, that's PC culture's fault.
All you have to do is look at our conversation thus far and you'll see it wasn't brought up "unprompted" ... but hey, you want to play the race card? Am I racist? No. Will you call me a racist? I doubt it. But thanks for living up to the stereotype: when political correctness is attacked, attack the messenger as a racist or somehow not ideologically pure enough.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:26 pm

Or to put it more simply: I'm not uncomfortable or nervous when you try to imply that I am a racist, or that I support trump, or enable the alt-right.

It's stupid.

I'm embarrassed that I've humored this infantile line of argument for so long.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:28 pm

By the way, this is getting heated and I'm sorry, but being that part of what's at issue here involves people being too easily offended in the eyes of many, it would be very PC of me to hold back and we don't want that. (Joking.)

We're at loggerheads and have been for a while. I'm sorry if I made you think I was lumping you in with the president. I did not intend to do that, although on this issue you're on the same page, but you know what they say about broken clocks.

Now look, if you have any questions to SEE where I'm coming from if you're still interested, ask away, but I think I've been pretty clear and you certainly have been as well. You may think you've done this. I disagree on that.

I'm clearly not winning you over whether you're reading my stuff or dismissing it. And by now you pretty much have to realize that I'm not going to believe in this menace until it comes for me, which if it truly is a menace will be for me to live down later. I don't give into social conservative beliefs. I don't give them an inch. Something that rigid eventually will work to my detriment, that's the problem with politically rigid thoughts. But to buy into the PC menace, to me, is to give them an inch when they don't deserve it. If you're offended on a personal level, well, if we both opted to get into a fight we're both going to have to live with the black eyes.

Otherwise, if we're going to just scream at each other, start a baseball thread and let's go. At least then we'll be having fun while we do it.
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