Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

[The Cid]

imaginary menace, a non-issue, silly college kids with zero impact, or a fake issue being pumped by the alt-right to invigorate racists.

Of course in the last two pages you've only addressed that first statement.

You've never actually convinced me of the evils of professors. There's also no common thread to imply it's all organized, that PC Culture is some homogeneous thing that has a real agenda on which all its backers would agree.

You've yet to show me one instance where I should be worried that this will get worse and impact more people.

And you flat out ignore the part about invigorating racists like that's not a problem right now and like they're not using political correctness as a shield to justify their bullshit. I'm lucky you addressed that point AT ALL.

You've also just breezed right by the hypocrisy in people who are trying to do to "PC Culture" what they claim it's doing to them. The people who are insulted when a woman headlines a major movie. The people who are insulted by the very existence of Millennials, The Cause For All Things Bad.

My suggestion that this is the same "kids on the lawn" nonsense that has existed since the concept of the editorial wasn't just dismissed, it was mocked.

You cited a 1990 article to dismiss my idea that this concept has existed well before 1990 under several different names. If you even saw when I made that "it's not new" point, and why would you.

You've yet to address my point that the definition you cling to for political correctness makes it easy for the alt-right to use it to justify bigotry. You refuse to acknowledge that this happens, that it is a problem, and if it is it's probably the fault of PC people right?

You've given me links, they tell me that there are extreme ideas out there, but they've never really underlined the "it's everywhere" nature of this debate.

Another point I've made that you've ignored deliberately: The majority of Americans HAVE REJECTED POLITICAL CORRECTNESS. They've ALREADY FAILED at whatever you think it is they're doing. Yet you tell me they're trying to silence dissent on the left, and Deacon busted out the word Machiavellian. We keep laughing at extreme instances of political correctness, which actually does speak to my point that we've made a mountain out of a molehill.

As far as walking in my shoes goes, the reason I find that so insulting is that you can't imagine my point of view while all but calling me an idiot. Or if you did, you probably imagined the entire world being drawn in crayon.

It's not because I want to mock you

Your tone in this exact post suggests you're lying. You came into this debate with no respect for me. I've wasted a lot of my time, but such is my life, and I honestly hate myself for daring to continue this.

Part of me wants to beg forgiveness but I'm sorry, I've done fuck all wrong and you know it.

[NorthernComfort]

You've never actually convinced me of the evils of professors. There's also no common thread to imply it's all organized, that PC Culture is some homogeneous thing that has a real agenda on which all its backers would agree.

I've never tried to make this argument.

You've yet to show me one instance where I should be worried that this will get worse and impact more people.

I've explained how PC discourse has split the Democratic Party and ultimately helped get Trump in office. If that's not impact that's making things worse, I don't know what it is. Again, you think it's an imaginary problem, so this will not persuade you.

And you flat out ignore the part about invigorating racists like that's not a problem right now and like they're not using political correctness as a shield to justify their bullshit. I'm lucky you addressed that point AT ALL.

Well, did I flat out ignore it, or did I address it? I addressed it many times and it seemed we were mostly in agreement. But now you say I flat out ignored it. Well, what was it? It looks like we discussed it at some length.

You've also just breezed right by the hypocrisy in people who are trying to do to "PC Culture" what they claim it's doing to them. The people who are insulted when a woman headlines a major movie. The people who are insulted by the very existence of Millennials, The Cause For All Things Bad.

I made my views on them pretty damn clear, and I literally said "There is zero reason for you to expect me to defend Gamergate." -- again, this is all just looking at what has already been said in this thread.

You cited a 1990 article to dismiss my idea that this concept has existed well before 1990 under several different names. If you even saw when I made that "it's not new" point, and why would you.

I saw it and replied directly to it.

You've yet to address my point that the definition you cling to for political correctness makes it easy for the alt-right to use it to justify bigotry. You refuse to acknowledge that this happens, that it is a problem, and if it is it's probably the fault of PC people right?

We discussed this as well.

You've given me links, they tell me that there are extreme ideas out there, but they've never really underlined the "it's everywhere" nature of this debate.

Sure, that's subjective, and we disagree on this point.

Another point I've made that you've ignored deliberately: The majority of Americans HAVE REJECTED POLITICAL CORRECTNESS. They've ALREADY FAILED at whatever you think it is they're doing. Yet you tell me they're trying to silence dissent on the left, and Deacon busted out the word Machiavellian. We keep laughing at extreme instances of political correctness, which actually does speak to my point that we've made a mountain out of a molehill.

Yes, but a vocal minority has NOT rejected political correctness, and that tension is causing us some very real problems. Again we have discussed this.

As far as walking in my shoes goes, the reason I find that so insulting is that you can't imagine my point of view while all but calling me an idiot. Or if you did, you probably imagined the entire world being drawn in crayon.

Again, you are inventing personal slights where there really is no personal malice here. We disagree.

Your tone in this exact post suggests you're lying. You came into this debate with no respect for me. I've wasted a lot of my time, but such is my life, and I honestly hate myself for daring to continue this.

This was my first reply to you in this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=918917#p918917

Yes, I was very disrespectful and I should feel ashamed.

[The Cid]

I've explained how PC discourse has split the Democratic Party and ultimately helped get Trump in office.

To which I pointed out that I think you're making a few leaps in logic. Still do. Most notably, that the Democratic Party is splintering for that reason and not because the two large parties are massive umbrellas that have been destined for infighting for a long time.

Also, as I am not a Democrat, both parties splintering and eventually becoming more options would be welcome with me. You're going to say that led directly to Trump, but again I think that's one Hell of a leap in logic and attributes a whole Hell of a lot of the rise in white nationalism to the PC, as though it's their fault.

Kind of sounds like passing the buck if you ask me.

Well, did I flat out ignore it, or did I address it?

Well you acknowledged that the alt-right exists, but brushed off how my point might be relevant to this discussion, that there might be someone trying to sell you this bill of goods to further their own agenda.

I must have been insulting the first time around because you took it to mean I was accusing you of being IN the alt-right, but that's as big a leap in logic as the one that puts PC people as responsible for Trump.

I made my views on them pretty damn clear, and I literally said "There is zero reason for you to expect me to defend Gamergate."

You're wrong. Gamergate made its entire bones by pointing to PC culture like it's the villain they could hide behind. They did exactly what I'm suggesting people would do about taking "anti-PC" to justify their hatred. If you're going to continue this I'm going to continue asking you to tell me why they're acceptable risk but the PC crowd must go.

The new Ghostbusters movie, same thing. People took disliking a bad movie too far, and when they looked bad they pointed to Political Correctness as the responsible party. So yes, this is part of the PC Culture argument we're having. If it weren't, the GG morons of the world wouldn't need to hide behind that term as though it excuses their horrible beliefs.

It's hard to separate your argument about PC Culture dividing the Democrats and making Trump happen from people who excuse Trump's white nationalism because "we're too PC." You definitely don't want that, it's nothing you ever voted for or would agree with. But, it concedes an important point to people who have, can, and will again use it to justify their horrible actions.

This is part of the debate we're having whether it's convenient for you to address or not. Especially given my contention that the vocal minority on that end is a REAL problem, compared to the easily-offended.

If you ask me, and you never did by the way, the reaction to what people think Political Correctness is is much more damning than anything it actually could be.

I'd easily take some easily offended children and overreaching college professors over the rise of Breitbart and Trump, which no, that's not the fault of political correctness, white nationalism is older than that 1990 article that defined PC Culture after all.

Yes, but a vocal minority has NOT rejected political correctness, and that tension is causing us some very real problems. Again we have discussed this.

And my suggestion that you have to accept vocal minorities, just the way you shouldn't have to defend them on the other end of the spectrum, was treated as, well, hostile.

I don't understand what you think ought be done that doesn't involve the same behavior we're to believe the Politically Correct use to bully us all.

If you can't handle a vocal minority I don't see where that's everyone's problem, or a real menace. The majority of us have rejected it. They're not going to succeed. Almost by definition they CAN'T. Maybe I'm dismissive to compare that to gnats buzzing as I did yesterday, but it's certainly nothing to lose sleep over.

Menace, after all, implies malice. If you're going to hold me to that I'm going to keep asking why we need to treat the Politically Correct as evil, rather than misguided.

Again, you are inventing personal slights where there really is no personal malice here. We disagree.

Malice aside there's been personal harm done. I am actually outright pissed about the tone you've used in this discussion. It insults me. I don't think I deserve to be treated like a moron. You can address my points or write them off, but your tone seriously cuts deep.

I can live with being offended and that's a part of life, but don't come around with your "I did everything right and you're being an asshole" tone. You've had me on my heels since the first reply you've given in this thread. It's not just that we disagree on this, it's as though you've implied I don't have the right to see things this way.

I'm not kidding when I say you've treated me in this debate exactly the way you tell me PC people handle debates.

[NorthernComfort]

To which I pointed out that I think you're making a few leaps in logic. Still do. Most notably, that the Democratic Party is splintering for that reason and not because the two large parties are massive umbrellas that have been destined for infighting for a long time.

I've never said it is SOLELY responsible, but that it is a significant factor. In other words, it's a real factor. Not an imaginary menace. But a real problem with real consequences.

Well you acknowledged that the alt-right exists, but brushed off how my point might be relevant to this discussion, that there might be someone trying to sell you this bill of goods to further their own agenda.

I told you what I thought about me being sold a bill of goods by the alt-right. Specifically, I think I told you where you could shove it.

You're wrong. Gamergate made its entire bones by pointing to PC culture like it's the villain they could hide behind. They did exactly what I'm suggesting people would do about taking "anti-PC" to justify their hatred. If you're going to continue this I'm going to continue asking you to tell me why they're acceptable risk but the PC crowd must go.

Where did I say they were acceptable risk???

If you ask me, and you never did by the way, the reaction to what people think Political Correctness is is much more damning than anything it actually could be.

Yeah, I agree. Real problem, real consequences.

Menace, after all, implies malice. If you're going to hold me to that I'm going to keep asking why we need to treat the Politically Correct as evil, rather than misguided.

It's a pretty fuzzy line between misguided and evil. Hanlon's Razor says we should assume incompetence.

But menace does not actually imply malice. "a person or thing that is likely to cause harm; a threat or danger"

So it is an interesting semantic gut check - I would call PC incompetent rather than evil, while I would describe the alt-right as both. But it doesn't change the inaccuracy of the phrase.

I don't intend malice, and I don't want you to get upset by me. I'm not very good at expressing tone on forums. I don't mean to come off half as rude as I sound, and I'm guessing my attempts at humor probably just rub off as cruel japes. Sorry.

[BtEO]

This thread seems almost as productive as one about abortion…

[The Cid]

Yeah, I agree. Real problem, real consequences.

Once again this comes across as "the alt-right is entirely the fault of the concept of political correctness."

Which is passing the buck. Big time. You are a passionate Democrat as I've seen in many threads. If you'd like, as a non-Democrat, I could give you a detailed list of reasons I did not vote for Hillary Rodham Clinton, none of which would involve the concept of political correctness. If I gave you a list of generic problems with the Democratic Party in general, I'm not sure that vocal minority would even rank. From your perspective it's undeniably different, but you're also already on the team. I won't launch into this, because I don't think you really need to hear it from me, but my point is there are more factors than you might be considering.

I do understand that this is your feeling. It's also Bill Maher's, and if nothing else he's certainly a Democrat thought leader of sorts, but I don't think I even need to point out that I don't often agree with that guy.

I've never said it is SOLELY responsible, but that it is a significant factor. In other words, it's a real factor. Not an imaginary menace. But a real problem with real consequences.

And you act as though your assertion that you believe it is should be taken as fact. In other words, your personal experience should be valued here. Mine, however, is out of line and should not be addressed as anything but poor form.

I don't mean to come off half as rude as I sound, and I'm guessing my attempts at humor probably just rub off as cruel japes. Sorry.

It's just nearly impossible to have a discussion with someone when I honestly would wonder at times if you have enough respect for me that you'd listen if you thought I DID have a point. Which, hey, you're free to just write me off as being some nutbag. I'm a third party member, let's face it I'm used to that by now. Being offended, again, is okay. See? I disagree with political correctness too. I just see it in a much different light. (That was an attempt at a joke. Don't worry, that misunderstood joke thing definitely went both ways.)

Which is why I keep pointing all this out to you. I'm not a Democrat, I'm not a progressive, I'm not pushing any agenda here. Granted, socially I'm about as liberal as they come, but I also have been known to call myself a Capitalist and try doing that in front of your average far-left progressive. The PC crowd probably wouldn't much care for me. They'd probably try to bully me around too. But they're of no concern to me, at all, and honestly I don't see much evidence of this stuff I am told is all over the place.

I've tried to apologize before in this thread for giving the impression that I thought the concept of political correctness doesn't exist at all. I know, my title does me no favors. But it's nothing I'm worried about, nothing I think America or even the DNC can't just get over, and I struggle to see it as as big a problem as you clearly do. Maybe it's that inability to actually be another person that I cited earlier preventing me from that.

Also BtEO, if it helps I felt physically ill by the end of this.

[raptor9k]

The alt-right is a vocal minority...we should just ignore them so they go away.

[The Cid]

If you believe that, we should do even less to the PC Crowd, since they're not nearly as powerful right now.

[raptor9k]

In practice I generally ignore both. Doesn't change the fact that they exist and are currently or will be a problem our society faces.

[The Cid]

In practice I find it absolutely disheartening that people would put those two groups on the same level of threat.

[NorthernComfort]

Ah, I took my birthday off. Now I am 30, old and wise.

Good intentions does not excuse the PC movement. It is easy to point an extreme example and say "Ah, but that is extreme, and an outlier!" and then dismiss it out of hand. But other people see the extreme examples, and they might not give the benefit of the doubt. They might not assume good intentions. They might not even understand it's an exception and not the rule. The result?



https://twitter.com/TheRickWilson/statu ... 7243659266

Just saw it while scrolling through my twitter feed this morning.

Also I'm not a Democrat although I did support a D this presidential cycle. I'm independent. I am more a libertarian with strong opinions on modern monetary theory. But I do care about the future of the Democratic Party because I don't see any other viable alternative to GOP at this point in time. I'm quite familiar with the flaws, and the ins and outs, of the Democratic Party and its various factions. And again, I tell you, having emerged from the belly of the beast: PC is a real problem. Put it on my goddamn tombstone. How many pages deep in this thread are we, and you still try to deny that it's a real problem?

But they're of no concern to me, at all, and honestly I don't see much evidence of this stuff I am told is all over the place.

Well, now we've come full circle in the conversation. A common theme in your early posts in this thread was basically "I live in MA, it's supposedly very liberal, and I don't see this behavior, thus I don't believe it exists."

So I'll just go back to what I said to you on January 26th- I wish the conversation had ended right then and there because I think it hits the nail on the head.

So my personal experience is very different than your personal experience.

To me that sounds like these ideas have a strong network effect and doesn't survive in isolation. It also hinges on having a pretty diverse group of acquaintances- I only know a couple white people who spout this stuff on the regular. Your opinion is that the phenomena just plain out don't exist. But they do, as I have told you. Am I lying, imagining things, giving alternative facts? No. It's two different experiences. I think dismissing it is pretty dangerous, especially if the reasoning is just that you haven't encountered it.

(Yes, this is a good example of my highly disrespectful debate style which made it clear that I came into this conversation without any respect for you or the conversation. No respect. None. At all. Ever.) ... but on a serious note, can you stop accusing me of this stuff? I don't think it's true, and it's exhausting and painfully 1-sided to be continually painted as a total asshole.

[The Cid]

So I'll just go back to what I said to you on January 26th- I wish the conversation had ended right then and there because I think it hits the nail on the head.

I do appreciate that you refuse to acknowledge my experience in any way other than calling it dirty pool. It's not insulting at all. Since I have to take your assertions as fact to make you happy. I so badly wish you would address my point of view as even remotely valid. I don't get why you even engaged me in conversation if you were so clearly unwilling to do this.

Because you keep writing it off, and as you go deeper and deeper it's more and more amazing that I haven't seen any of it. It's SO OBVIOUS, according to you, and SO PREVALENT, so the fact that I've yet to see a hint of it outside of the internet is still shocking to me.

It's also still not going to be considered. I'm sorry. It's hard for me to believe I'm under threat from this in any way. In. Any. Way. And nothing in this thread has convinced me otherwise, no matter how many times you repeat it to me as though you're lecturing the dumbass.

I don't think it's true, and it's exhausting and painfully 1-sided to be continually painted as a total asshole.

Exactly how I feel. Exactly to the word. It's how I've felt for quite a while now. And since you're painting me that way there's no way I can imagine you taking me seriously. So you're not engaging me in debate, but rather mocking me.

Which is also why you refuse to even acknowledge that I may have a point at all.

Look. You don't agree with me. You seem to not see a shred of validity in anything I say. I get it. You don't need to keep beating me over the head with how much of a moron you think I am.

I feel ignored, I feel like you never intended to listen to me, and I feel like I've had days of my time entirely wasted. I'm not painting you any way. I'm telling you exactly how you came across to me. You've been talking this entire time like I don't even have a point. Like it's not worth considering in any way. I should just be shouted at with "YES THIS HAPPENS AND YOU NEED TO BE CONCERNED" and that's it. Never considered. Never treated like anything but a hostile entity.

But I walk away from this thread having been no more convinced than I was in my original post that I should be even remotely worried.

I know. That means I didn't accept your experience as fact and my own as an anomaly that mustn't be considered.

Just know I'm going to start posting every link of someone mutilating the definition of "political correctness" to justify bigotry. I asked you to stop with the damn links, but now it's game on.

[NorthernComfort]

I do appreciate that you refuse to acknowledge my experience in any way other than calling it dirty pool. It's not insulting at all. Since I have to take your assertions as fact to make you happy. I so badly wish you would address my point of view as even remotely valid. I don't get why you even engaged me in conversation if you were so clearly unwilling to do this.

Look. You don't agree with me. You seem to not see a shred of validity in anything I say. I get it. You don't need to keep beating me over the head with how much of a moron you think I am.

Where did I call it dirty pool, and where am I calling you a moron?

Seriously dude. It is exhausting to read endless ad hominem stuff about how disrespectful I am and how I completely 100% ignore your opinion and validity as a human being.

It's not me and I'm sick of it. I try to assume good intention and you make it DAMN hard at this point.

[The Cid]

Where did I call it dirty pool, and where am I calling you a moron?

THEN ADDRESS IT AS THOUGH IT'S NOT JUST BULLSHIT. All you've ever done with that point is throw it away. And tell me why I'm wrong for ever bringing it up. And why it doesn't enter into our conversation.

You've spent so much more time writing my points off than addressing them. It's disrespectful.

But you put your OWN personal experience in this thread and I'm supposed to take it. If that doesn't strike you as putting your own experience as valid and my own as invalid, I'll take a page out of your book and ask you to look again.

Seriously dude. It is exhausting to read endless ad hominem stuff about how disrespectful I am and how I completely 100% ignore your opinion and validity as a human being.

Then admit that I'm not making this shit up. Admit it. Admit that I'm coming from somewhere real and that this isn't some strawman for you to lecture me about.

I honestly feel that way. I'm not doing this to score points. Word for word, I honestly feel like you've never entered this with the slightest bit of respect and it makes me wonder what the Hell you think you're doing.

If you don't think that repeatedly lecturing me without taking my points into much consideration other than why they're poor argument form is disrespectful I don't know what to tell you, but you haven't been interested in anything I have to say for some time now by your own admission and asking me to defend myself further is absolutely pressing a point.

[NorthernComfort]

I can't believe I spent literally over an hour of my life writing a 7,000-word reply in which I tried my hardest to be respectful and consider your views, and find the agreements and disagreements, in a vain hope of finding amicable resolution and putting the matter to rest.

Seriously, I put fucking time into it. Out of respect for you, and out of respect to the good conversations this forum has fostered over the years.

Yes, we have gotten overheated in this thread. Unkind words have been said by both of us. I am sorry for being rude, and I am sorry for some sarcastic remarks, but the VAST MAJORITY of the words spilled in this thread were seriously intended and written in good faith.

But now you basically say I am doing this all to troll you? Cid, when you dismiss all of my posts and say I never came in with an ounce of respect, you're just saying I'm a troll, and that 7,000 word post was a troll, and every one of my replies is trolling you.

Do you honestly believe that?