Guns and abortion and...thoughtful civility...oh my?

Perspectives on our world and our universe, how it works, what is happening, and why it happens. Whether by a hidden hand or natural laws, we come together to hash it out, and perhaps provide a little bit of education and enlightenment for others. This is a place for civil discussion. Please keep it that way.
Forum rules
1) Remain civil. Respect others' rights to their viewpoints, even if you believe them to be completely wrong.
2) Sourcing your information is highly recommended. Plagiarism will get you banned.
3) Please create a new thread for a new topic, even if you think it might not get a lot of responses. Do not create mega-threads.
4) If you think the subject of a thread is not important enough to merit a post, simply avoid posting in it. If enough people agree, it will fall off the page soon enough.
User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 44015
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: Guns and abortion and...thoughtful civility...oh my?

Post by Deacon » Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:17 pm

For those who don't believe me, who don't see it, who don't grasp the extent of the irrationality of those in the anti-gun or anti-abortion crowds, who eschew reason and civility for outrageous rhetoric, our president said actually said, out loud, in public, in an official speech at an event in front of attendees and the press, and reiterated through the White House Twitter account, that it's easier for a teenager to get a Glock than a book. He said that. Let that sink in for a second.

Do I really have to point out the absurdity of such a claim, the preposterousness of such a comment, the utter disregard for reality inherent in that kind of inflammatory and irresponsible position? Do I?

Because even the poorest person in America can check out a book for free at any of the 115,000+ public libraries in this country. They can use the computers for free in those same libraries--without even needing a free library card! Smartphones are available for free and cheap. Chrome books and other computers are available to own for cheap. And it's all legal. It's highly illegal in every state for a teenager to buy a Glock or any other handgun from any dealer, even at a gun show, and nowhere can they they go to get one for free. Many states even outlaw private family transfers.

There is nothing accurate or rational about his statements. It is purely Trump-like divisiveness and rabble rousing, the most base pandering, the most irresponsible casting aside of hope of any reasonable action. The anti-gun crowd already shoves aside any discussion of the causes of violence, refusing to look at anything other than a caricature of a symptom.

And the anti-gun crowd claims they're open to a "compromise" on the Second Amendment of the US Constitution? And anyone is supposed to believe that?
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
The Cid
Crazy Person
Posts: 7150
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: The Suncoast
Contact:

Re: Guns and abortion and...thoughtful civility...oh my?

Post by The Cid » Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:39 pm

Deacon wrote:And the anti-gun crowd claims they're open to a "compromise" on the Second Amendment of the US Constitution? And anyone is supposed to believe that?
I feel so, so very sorry, I should apologize to you so many times. I should never have said the word compromise.

I regret it strongly. How dare I. I am personally not anti-gun, but your repetition of the word "compromise" as though it would undo the very fabric of society is certainly my fault. For that I am sorry.

I suppose there's nothing at all we can do about the high rate of people shooting each other with guns that are already illegal and therefore should continue never addressing that as an issue from either side and instead spouting platitudes about how evil whoever our chosen opponent in this debate is can be.

Because addressing the issue makes a person anti-gun, and we just can't have that.

So I'm sorry.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 44015
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: Guns and abortion and...thoughtful civility...oh my?

Post by Deacon » Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:41 pm

Would you constitute your reply as thoughtfully civil? Because it seemed to me to be instead a full on sarcastic response to a straw man I never stood up.

I wonder what the slain officers whose sacrifice Obama was supposed to have been commemorating during that speech would think about both it and your response. I can't say. I didn't know them. What do you think?
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
The Cid
Crazy Person
Posts: 7150
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: The Suncoast
Contact:

Re: Guns and abortion and...thoughtful civility...oh my?

Post by The Cid » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:06 pm

Deacon wrote:Would you constitute your reply as thoughtfully civil? Because it seemed to me to be instead a full on sarcastic response
To the repeated sarcastic use of the word "compromise," perhaps. And the attachment to it of "anti-gun." But yeah, you've never created a straw man in your life, Deacon. Nah, you're absolutely correct. All talk about compromise is a secret plot to take away your guns. It could never be honest talk of, hey, there's definitely something that can be done, why does everyone have to dig their heels in about how much they hate each other when that's not even necessary? Do something about the black market gun trade. Not the current legal one. The one that's already against the law.

Not even gun laws! Laws like "you can't steal things from people" and "you can't sell stolen property." I'll even settle for someone getting them for laundering the money they make off their already wildly illegal transactions. We already have extensive laws we can work on here, to me that's plenty of compromise.
Deacon wrote:I wonder what the slain officers whose sacrifice Obama was supposed to have been commemorating during that speech would think about both it and your response
I would imagine as both proud Americans and people sworn to uphold the law that regardless of whether they think my opinions of being sick of the rhetoric on both sides of the discussion are valid, it's certainly far from yelling fire in a crowded theater.

But hey, long as we're appealing to emotion because convenience is fun and not at all dirty pool, I'd bet they would at least be happy with the idea of removing illegal weapons from the hands of people who might use them against police officers. Certainly more than a few cops in places like Philadelphia are missing friends and partners because of guns we don't need to write a single new law to start trying to get rid of. Don't know Dallas that well but I'd imagine there's at least one part of town where that's a danger down there too. It's true up here, I certainly couldn't do the work of a beat cop in Lawrence, MA, dealing with MS-13 and guns that, hey look, legislation didn't make them go away! That's a damn tough job. It'd be nice if they were in a little less danger.

I'm surprised you don't have a bigger issue with illegal guns as a proud gun owner yourself. They create nothing but problems for the second amendment, they're used to do things that then get associated with all guns, and you know full well that no assault on legal gun ownership will take a single one out of anybody's hands. Doesn't that make you think, gee, somebody should do something about that?
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 44015
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: Guns and abortion and...thoughtful civility...oh my?

Post by Deacon » Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:42 pm

The Cid wrote:To the repeated sarcastic use of the word "compromise," perhaps. And the attachment to it of "anti-gun." But yeah, you've never created a straw man in your life, Deacon. Nah, you're absolutely correct. All talk about compromise is a secret plot to take away your guns.
More unfounded and unnecessary sarcasm. If you take issue with something in particular I say, call it out. If you feel I've stood up a straw man, call it out. Your mocking condescension can stuff that straw man about compromise and taking away your guns full to bursting, but it doesn't make it any more thoughtful, any more civil, and it certainly isn't any more correct.
It could never be honest talk of, hey, there's definitely something that can be done, why does everyone have to dig their heels in about how much they hate each other when that's not even necessary? Do something about the black market gun trade. Not the current legal one. The one that's already against the law.
I'm not sure what you're referring to, but honestly I don't know if that's just because whatever point you might have had was obscured by so much sarcasm that I can't tell what's what in it.
Not even gun laws! Laws like "you can't steal things from people" and "you can't sell stolen property." I'll even settle for someone getting them for laundering the money they make off their already wildly illegal transactions. We already have extensive laws we can work on here, to me that's plenty of compromise.
If you're lobbying to enforce the laws we have already, then I'm fully on board. We do so little enforcement not even of deeper and more difficult stuff like money laundering and such, but even on easy ones like a convicted felon attempting to buy a gun from a dealer, like an idiot, already a crime and easily prosecuted but almost never done. Straw purchases are hardly ever prosecuted, and when they are generally a little probation and off they go. It's insanity. Why aren't we going after these people? We don't even need new laws to do so. Would we do more if we had even more laws?
But hey, long as we're appealing to emotion because convenience is fun and not at all dirty pool, I'd bet they would at least be happy with the idea of removing illegal weapons from the hands of people who might use them against police officers. Certainly more than a few cops in places like Philadelphia are missing friends and partners because of guns we don't need to write a single new law to start trying to get rid of. Don't know Dallas that well but I'd imagine there's at least one part of town where that's a danger down there too. It's true up here, I certainly couldn't do the work of a beat cop in Lawrence, MA, dealing with MS-13 and guns that, hey look, legislation didn't make them go away! That's a damn tough job. It'd be nice if they were in a little less danger.
I agree fully. A friend of mine is a cop in Dallas. I don't mean the DFW area, I mean a Dallas PD officer. His shift ended before the shooting started, but he was immediately called back out. This isn't purely theoretical to me.
I'm surprised you don't have a bigger issue with illegal guns as a proud gun owner yourself. ... Doesn't that make you think, gee, somebody should do something about that?
I can't imagine what I could have said to give you any impression otherwise. I'm absolutely in agreement with that. In fact, that's a core pillar of my stance, that new laws to punish legal gun owners are an ill-considered and misguided response to already illegal guns already illegally obtained and already illegally possessed then being used in already illegal acts.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 44015
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: Guns and abortion and...thoughtful civility...oh my?

Post by Deacon » Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:12 pm

To lighten the mood a little, here's something I saw posted to Facebook in defense of Obama's speech:


Today Obama gave a speech at the memorial for the five slain Dallas police officers who were killed during one the many Black Lives Matter protests that Obama has so vocally supported. A lot of people have been critical of the speech because he used it as an opportunity to lecture about race and guns. Some say that it is staggeringly idiotic and cruel to utter even one blatantly political statement at a memorial service for dead cops. Some say that one line in particular will stand out as perhaps one of the dumbest statements ever spoken by a president, especially during an event like this.

The line went as follows:

"We flood communities with so many guns that it is easier for a teenager to buy a Glock than get his hands on a computer or even a book."

Some say this kind of sentiment belongs in commentaries written by your ill informed aunt on Facebook, not in a speech delivered by the President of the United States at a funeral in front of a bunch of people who, given the location and the occasion, are sure to already differ with him wildly on the issue. Some say this statement -- let alone the rest of the speech -- proves that Obama is a compulsive liar, manipulator, and probably a sociopath.

Some say these things. But I do not say them. In fact, I would like to defend Obama publicly. It's easy to make fun of the notion that firearms are easier for a child to obtain than a library book, but the people mocking Obama clearly have not been out in the world recently.

I can tell you that his claims line up perfectly with my own experience. In fact, just last week I went to Barnes and Noble to buy a book only to discover that almost all of the shelves were bare. Instead of books, I found piles and piles of Glocks lying around on the floor. A sign read: "Free Glocks! Please take three."

I saw several kids eagerly grabbing armfuls of Glocks. I'm assuming they need them because the schools these days don't assign book reports anymore -- they assign gun reports. I'm told that instead of summer reading lists, the kids are given summer shooting lists. If a kid shoots up to 5 guns in a week, he earns a certificate that he can redeem for a free personal pan pizza at Pizza Hut. Even the computer labs at schools these days have been replaced with gun labs. There are guns everywhere.

Anyway, I took three guns myself. Somehow, I did manage to find a book buried under five or six Glocks. I decided to buy it even though it was 750 dollars -- the average price for a book in today's America. I had to produce an ID and pass a background check for the book, of course, but the whole process only took about 45 minutes.

The problem is that I can't take it outside anywhere because my state doesn't allow open carry for fiction novels. I did obtain a concealed reading permit, but most public establishments discourage or even ban reading so the permit is basically useless.

On the other hand, I can take my guns anywhere, buy them anywhere, rent them for free from the library, and shoot them wherever I want. The whole situation feels a bit incongruous, if you ask me.

I'm glad the President finally spoke out on this issue, even if he did have to turn a memorial service into a gun control rally to do it. I am so proud of my president!
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
The Cid
Crazy Person
Posts: 7150
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: The Suncoast
Contact:

Re: Guns and abortion and...thoughtful civility...oh my?

Post by The Cid » Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:49 pm

Deacon wrote:More unfounded and unnecessary sarcasm. If you take issue with something in particular I say, call it out. If you feel I've stood up a straw man, call it out.
You call me sarcastic, but you are using some very, very grand language when talking about those you would label "anti-gun." To me you are absolutely not treating those with whom you disagree with the least bit of civility. It reads more like you're pleading for the "civility" of people to agree with you and admit how wrong they are. To me it kind of looked like the same mocking condescension I've given you.

Look, I very much understand and appreciate your passion for this issue, but I don't always read your statements as a very impassioned plea that we need civility and reason in the second amendment debate. If you're going to use flowery language toward those with whom you would disagree, then I might respond with some admittedly thick and irritated sarcasm. I'm sorry for an insulting tone nevertheless, you're right to say it wasn't necessary.
Deacon wrote:Why aren't we going after these people? We don't even need new laws to do so. Would we do more if we had even more laws?
I just want to point out that when I, personally, say "compromise," this is the exact compromise I'm thinking of. No, it's nothing being floated by anyone in Washington, but you'll notice I don't generally agree much with many of that crowd in general, and I certainly don't approve of the job they've been doing. So no, I don't think the members of Congress are open to a compromise like the one I'm talking about, but I certainly am not backing down from my belief that there is middle ground in which to meet.
Deacon wrote:This isn't purely theoretical to me.
I know. You've made your connections to law enforcement clear in the past. I respect that and understand that. By the way implying what you did didn't exactly make me want to make a pivot back toward civility.
Deacon wrote:I can't imagine what I could have said to give you any impression otherwise. I'm absolutely in agreement with that. In fact, that's a core pillar of my stance, that new laws to punish legal gun owners are an ill-considered and misguided response to already illegal guns already illegally obtained and already illegally possessed then being used in already illegal acts.
I know you're as against drug prohibition as I am, why not allocate those resources to stopping the flow of stolen and otherwise illegally-sold weapons into the places with the worst murder rates in the country? There. Everyone wins. I can think of something in such a compromise that would satisfy pretty much every generalized group we have. Liberals get some things they've been desperate for. Conservatives protect America's rights and offset the costs of a tough-on-crime move. Law enforcement is relieved of a burden that, as I understand it, many in law enforcement are tired of having to enforce. In its place, they can tackle a real problem hurting their community and putting them personally in danger every day. The only people who lose here are people who think Pablo Escobar constitutes a role model. High fives all around.

It's not as impossible as the War on Drugs, after all the guns aren't being illegally-made, we know where the source is and they don't want this either. Seems like this would be a lot easier than arguing back and forth about what ought and oughtn't be a law. As the parents of the world say, play with the toys you already have before asking for new ones.

No, this isn't a thing anyone currently in Washington is suggesting. So I'm just suggesting, in theory, that this is what "compromise" could look like. And of course, as in all things, it will not be perfect. As we all know, make anything as illegal as you wish and put all the measures in place to keep it out, it'll still get in somehow. But what I have in mind, however impossible, would almost certainly help matters. And not a single pen in the Capitol or on K Street needs lifted.

So I ask again: What's so bad about compromise?

Sorry for rambling, but if you want me to elaborate I'll give a wall of text, this is me after all. And I'm also sorry for yet another detached "what about this impossible thing" rant like I tend to give, but that's generally where I come from.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest