Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:15 pm

I don't know what to say to you at this point, Cid. Cultural and political arguments is an odd distinction. Do you think that PC culture is NOT a political argument in America? Because, once again, tomes of evidence are written every single day about this political argument.

Just because I wasn't given a gag order to discuss my views on politics doesn't mean it's not having huge ramifications. The whole point is that PC culture is alienating people, so they don't vote for you. That is politics.

Honestly it seems like you've got a supreme confidence in your opinion that this issue is totally made up, or at least not important, and therefore you're dismissing it as either non-existent or a non-issue. Maybe it's because you started the thread? Either way I'm just calling bullshit. I can pick up pretty much any major US newspaper and I'll find a dozen articles in the last month alone about the political consequences of the left's squabbling.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:27 pm

NorthernComfort wrote:Do you think that PC culture is NOT a political argument in America? Because, once again, tomes of evidence are written every single day about this political argument.
It is not a matter of policy, it is a matter of what we believe to be acceptable and not acceptable. That is decidedly a cultural issue. It is basically a matter of etiquette. If it is not, please explain to me what the menace is. I get your fears for the Democratic Party, but that's your end of the issue. It is not a platform. There are no rights that anybody has suggested to be under threat in this discussion.
NorthernComfort wrote:Honestly it seems like you've got a supreme confidence in your opinion that this issue is totally made up, or at least not important, and therefore you're dismissing it as either non-existent or a non-issue. Maybe it's because you started the thread?
People keep talking like something is under threat but I'm supposed to inherently know what and for the life of me I cannot figure it out.

All I see are people exercising their right to free speech. They're taking too much offense at silly stuff, but they are acting within their rights and not imposing on those of anybody else. And when I see articles about this, when I see people opine on this in that mountain of evidence that is every bit as anecdotal as mine, I see phrases like "freedom of speech" in there, as though the first amendment is under some kind of threat.

You want to explain to me how on Earth that's the least bit true?

Parties discourage free thought. That's not new. That's also not a political correctness issue.

Beyond that I have no idea what is even upsetting here. None. I would like somebody to explain to me why people who are not Democrats are concerned with this crap that I believe to be a non-issue.

Until I see that, I have no choice. I have to believe this is an exaggeration of people like the alt-right in order to help sway people to their worldview. All the evidence I've seen points specifically to that.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by Deacon » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:42 pm

NorthernComfort wrote:How do you compromise when one side literally tells the other not to speak?
Nailed it. Right there.

Also, serious question, what's the WWC?
NorthernComfort wrote:I worked on the Hillary campaign... I’ve seen a ton of the behind the scenes infighting between these two factions. It’s not just stupid posts on Facebook. This is the issue that is splintering the party.
Hush. You don't know what you're talking about. there is no language policing. That's a made-up thing Trump used to scare people into voting for him.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:44 pm

I have to believe this is an exaggeration of people like the alt-right in order to help sway people to their worldview. All the evidence I've seen points specifically to that.
That’s one hell of a way to completely dismiss everything I’ve said in this thread, along with reality.
Also, serious question, what's the WWC?
Sorry, white working class. People on the campaign talk in a non-stop string of abbreviations.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by Deacon » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:45 pm

Cid, you're still going on about what could possibly be under threat? The same thing that's under threat from fake news: productive discussion and dialogue. But that's probably invented by the alt-right, too.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:47 pm

Also, if you're curious about what policies this wing tends to propose, they center around racial reparations with federal programs specifically intended to redistribute wealth based upon race & grievance. This is just stupid to propose for a national party platform if you have the slightest hope of winning an election.

Oh, and if you're against those programs, you're racist.

No idea why the alt-right is getting blamed for this. If anything the current alt-right movement was started in reaction to it. And now they also created it? It's just conspiratorial.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:05 pm

Deacon wrote:But that's probably invented by the alt-right, too.
Nobody could dare claim to do fake news better than they, actually, so perhaps.
Deacon wrote:Cid, you're still going on about what could possibly be under threat? The same thing that's under threat from fake news: productive discussion and dialogue
Then explain how people are, at all, hindering this by coming to the discussion with their opinions. What, they don't let you speak? Then don't get bullied around by them. But unless they're in violation of something, and I bet we can all agree that they aren't, they get invited just the same as anyone else. Anything less would be undemocratic and against free speech if you ask me.
NorthernComfort wrote:Also, if you're curious about what policies this wing tends to propose, they center around racial reparations with federal programs specifically intended to redistribute wealth based upon race & grievance.
Oh you mean that idea that started when I was a kid? Yeah, that's so new and menacing.
NorthernComfort wrote:Oh, and if you're against those programs, you're racist.
All the rights movements in the world and we're fighting to defend the racists because Heaven forbid that word get lobbed at any innocent people.

Free speech means accepting dissent. It means we don't have to pretend everyone who disagrees with us is out to get us.
NorthernComfort wrote:No idea why the alt-right is getting blamed for this. If anything the current alt-right movement was started in reaction to it. And now they also created it? It's just conspiratorial.
They blew it out of proportion so they could use the menace that doesn't exist to further their ideas. They worry about their right to say slurs about people without ever being called on it (which isn't a right by the way). They don't really care much about the rights of others, as evidenced by the man they pushed to power.

But hey, so long as we make sure they're not called racist. Even though in a lot of their case, it's entirely accurate and it is our first amendment right to say, for example, that Breitbart pushes racist views.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:24 pm

I get that you don't have a horse in this race, as you are a proud Libertarian who doesn't support the 2-party system, but I think you're in pretty deep denial about how this is going to play out as a national debate.
Oh you mean that idea that started when I was a kid? Yeah, that's so new and menacing.
Wow I had no idea you were 150 years old! ... see I can be sarcastic about serious issues too, but it doesn't make anybody look cool or smart. Just makes us come off as flippant.
All the rights movements in the world and we're fighting to defend the racists because Heaven forbid that word get lobbed at any innocent people.
I don't think you're connecting the dots at all here. You seem aware that we recently had an election. You seem aware that Trump is in power. You seem aware that some of his supporters are racist. You seem aware that many of his policies seem to target minorities.

So what's the best thing to do to combat this? WIN A FUCKING ELECTION. DON'T LET THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY DEFEAT ITSELF BY INFIGHTING.

And how do we prevent the democratic party defeat itself by infighting?

COME UP WITH A PLATFORM THAT ADDRESSES REAL NEEDS OF THE PEOPLE, SO THAT THEY VOTE FOR YOU AND NOT THE ASSHOLE.

And how do we come up with that platform?

FIND COMPROMISE BETWEEN THE VARIOUS FACTIONS WITHIN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY?

And why can't we do that right now?

BECAUSE ONE WING IS FUNDAMENTALLY OPPOSED TO OPEN DISCOURSE AND COMPROMISE.

Okay then. Get it? I'm so fucking sick of explaining this obvious shit.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:26 pm

And if your answer is some abstract pontificating about the evils of 2-party politics... get real. Trump is consolidating power right now, we need to leave that bullshit at home. 4 years to go, Democrats need to balance that power ASAP. Don't want to help, or acknowledge the problem that we need to solve? Okay, so we let Trump and his actually-racist buddies win. That's reality, if you want to try it out.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:33 pm

Sorry for the tone, this is not exactly a red letter week for me.

I get pissy when people tell me that things that are clearly real are false. Sort of like when Sean Spicer takes the podium.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:40 pm

NorthernComfort wrote:Wow I had no idea you were 150 years old! ... see I can be sarcastic about serious issues too, but it doesn't make anybody look cool or smart. Just makes us come off as flippant.
This is a thing people keep insisting is new and growing, putting extremely old ideas out there isn't exactly going to convince me that there's any menace posed.
NorthernComfort wrote:So what's the best thing to do to combat this? WIN A FUCKING ELECTION. DON'T LET THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY DEFEAT ITSELF BY INFIGHTING.
To you, this entire issue is nothing but an in-fight within the Democratic Party. I understand that. I have been asking for why other people care. Because that is, after all, why it constitutes a problem for the DNC is it not?

You keep talking about the team sport of politics. I cannot tell you enough that, because of this, what you are worried about is a symptom of a greater disease. What disease?
NorthernComfort wrote:And how do we prevent the democratic party defeat itself by infighting?

COME UP WITH A PLATFORM THAT ADDRESSES REAL NEEDS OF THE PEOPLE, SO THAT THEY VOTE FOR YOU AND NOT THE ASSHOLE.

And how do we come up with that platform?

FIND COMPROMISE BETWEEN THE VARIOUS FACTIONS WITHIN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY?

And why can't we do that right now?

BECAUSE ONE WING IS FUNDAMENTALLY OPPOSED TO OPEN DISCOURSE AND COMPROMISE.
SO DON'T EVEN TRY, APPARENTLY. JUST TELL THEM TO FALL IN LINE, AS IT IS THEIR DUTY AS DEMOCRATS TO BE GOOD LITTLE SOLDIERS AND VOTE FOR WHO THEY ARE TOLD TO VOTE FOR.

Apparently it's my duty, too.
NorthernComfort wrote:And if your answer is some abstract pontificating about the evils of 2-party politics... get real. Trump is consolidating power right now, we need to leave that bullshit at home. 4 years to go, Democrats need to balance that power ASAP. Don't want to help, or acknowledge the problem that we need to solve? Okay, so we let Trump and his racist buddies win. That's reality, if you want to try it out.
Maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe it is a free speech issue. Just, you know, the exact opposite of the way it's often framed.
NorthernComfort wrote:I get pissy when people tell me that things that are clearly real are false. Sort of like when Sean Spicer takes the podium.
I get pissy when I ask the same question six times and the closest thing I get to a response is "ISN'T IT OBVIOUS?!"

I'm glad you'd rather my political view not exist, by the way. I'm sorry it makes it so inconvenient on you that not everybody marches in line with the two major parties.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:45 pm

I'm registered Independent, and I worked for Hillary because I opposed Trump that fucking much. That's still my position.

If people are serious about beating Trump and his ilk, it means you should be rooting for the Democratic party right about now. And for them to succeed, they need to figure this out. I think acknowledging that it's an issue is the first step. Or we can blame the alt-right for inventing the whole controversy? WTF?

Do you want Trump to get 4 or 8 years? Seriously.
I'm glad you'd rather my political view not exist, by the way. I'm sorry it makes it so inconvenient on you that not everybody marches in line with the two major parties.
the fuck are you on about? the whole point is that the party doesnt even have a line to march to. you don't fit into this equation, mr. libertarian. you've got your opinion, you've got your dismissal of reality and all available evidence, and you've got your apathetic view towards the democratic party. enjoy!
I get pissy when I ask the same question six times and the closest thing I get to a response is "ISN'T IT OBVIOUS?!"
It's pretty obvious that Trump is President, and was rewarded for campaigning against the PC attitudes of the left. It's pretty obvious that there is a huge internal debate within the Democratic party and that we got smoked in the election, possible for catering to PC attitudes. If you can't figure out that we need to fix that debate before we can win an election and fix the Trump situation, well, I dunno, shit is hard yo.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:57 pm

Anyway, it's really surreal to have 3 windows open on my screen: I've got this thread on RLF, I'm reading an article about Hillary's failures with college-educated vs. working-class whites, and I've got a Slack channel open to a Hillary alumni group chatting about this very issue in respect to organizing opposition to Trump.

And then I've got you, Cid, telling me it's an alt-right exaggeration. But I can literally look at the other side of my screen and I can see democratic strategists wrangling over this. Gee, who should I believe?
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:57 pm

NorthernComfort wrote:If people are serious about beating Trump and his ilk, it means you should be rooting for the Democratic party right about now.
Kiss my ass. I'm rooting for people to wake up and realize Trump isn't that far off the Washington norm, and there's only one thing that can mean: We've gone astray and our political system is broken.

It's not one guy. We can act like it is, but this is the beginning. If we do not move toward some kind of a middle this is the tenor of our politics moving forward, exaggerations and extreme statements.
NorthernComfort wrote:Do you want Trump to get 4 or 8 years? Seriously.
Do you think that only one side is to blame for Donald Trump holding the highest office in the land?

I don't root for one party over the other because this isn't a sport and we're on the same team. Like it or not, we are all on the same team. I'm sure as Hell not rooting for more business as usual. Besides which, unless the electoral college gets taken away I may as well have already voted for the Democratic candidate.
NorthernComfort wrote:the fuck are you on about?
Direct response to this, to which I took quite a bit of offense:
NorthernComfort wrote:Don't want to help, or acknowledge the problem that we need to solve? Okay, so we let Trump and his actually-racist buddies win. That's reality, if you want to try it out.
Maybe your team keeps losing because you think it's good etiquette to tell me what I ought think or what I am if I do not fall in line. It's much easier to yell at me like I'm an asshole for challenging you.

But I guess I'm such a moron since you keep talking to me like one. Which is great, because I love spending time writing responses to someone who doesn't consider what I have to say and treats me like an idiot for saying it.

I do thank you for not disputing my repeated claim that this provides no threat whatsoever to freedom of speech. But then you fail to do the math and realize that this is the imagined menace that has worked against the Democratic Party and since that part of it is very much untrue it is exactly why I keep bringing up the masters of misinformation that comprise the Racist Rights Movement.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:04 pm

Kiss my ass. I'm rooting for people to wake up and realize Trump isn't that far off the Washington norm, and there's only one thing that can mean: We've gone astray and our political system is broken.
When I was younger this sort of thinking seemed pretty legit, it’s principled, it holds everybody accountable. And then I grew up and I realized it’s incredibly naive. And then Trump got elected and now you’re just normalizing extremism. Blah blah let's have a revolution! Whatever man.
Do you think that only one side is to blame for Donald Trump holding the highest office in the land?
Nope. Democratic infighting was a huge reason. And what were they fighting about? OH RIGHT.
Maybe your team keeps losing because you think it's good etiquette to tell me what I ought think or what I am if I do not fall in line.
The only thing I’ve told you to think is to look at the available evidence and admit that there is a roiling debate over PC and intersectionality within the democratic party, and that it’s not some media conspiracy or alt-right exaggeration. The killers are calling from INSIDE the house!!

I’ve shared my opinion on the 2 sides of the debate, but honestly I could care less which side you prefer. It’s beside the point of this thread.
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