Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:24 pm

And?

People have presented this as a problem. How exactly is that a problem in any way?

If it's just people talking, if it's just feedback loops and patting each other on the back, what is the issue here? I've heard people pose this as a free speech issue, but aren't people free to get overly offended about stuff? They were when I was a kid, they were before that. As civilians, they have no power to stop you from saying or doing anything. Far as I can tell, little to no legislation has been passed anywhere in America to that end, and it's unclear what if any political backing any of these movements have.

As it stands, it's just people talking. And isn't getting offended about what people say to each other the very thing we're supposed to be worried about?

I don't agree with them either, but as they're not imposing their will over me and there's little to no chance of them doing so in the future, that's tough buttons on my part.

Maybe I'm overstating it to say it's all a lie, but I fail to see the actual menace or any semblance of any impact from this growing movement people appear to be so angry about in the kind of circles where they emphatically voted for the current president.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:35 pm

I don't agree with them either, but as they're not imposing their will over me and there's little to no chance of them doing so in the future, that's tough buttons on my part.
Well, it’s not really just talk. They seek to impose their will over others through censorship. The most common theme is people of color telling white people to not speak, but instead listen. And this follows a totem-pole of grievance until everybody is silent except for the refugee disabled gay muslim transgender rape victim. It’s a litmus test for conversation. And thus the dysfunction begins. I get the abstract concept- give voice to the voiceless- but in practice it's a nightmare scenario of distrust.

It seems to me you haven’t encountered these people personally so it’s kind of baffling why you’ve got your mind all made up about how big a deal it is.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:51 pm

NorthernComfort wrote:They seek to impose their will over others through censorship.
Have they so much as proposed this in a single bill anywhere in the country? Because it seems like the answer is either no, or that anything they've tried has been soundly defeated.

Seems like something that oughtn't be worried about. Sounds like extreme outlier talk, which always gets press (think the true believer who actually seems to expect they will have to use their guns in armed defense against an oppressive regime) but is more a distraction from real issues and a convenient excuse for stereotyping.
NorthernComfort wrote:The most common theme is people of color telling white people to not speak, but instead listen. And this follows a totem-pole of grievance until everybody is silent except for the refugee disabled gay muslim transgender rape victim.
It's difficult for me to see how this would lead to any legislation. It also sounds really extreme, like the kind of belief that only a select few (very loud) people tend to have that never really results in much of anything at all.
NorthernComfort wrote:it’s kind of baffling why you’ve got your mind all made up about how big a deal it is.
People believing it's a big deal helped get Donald Trump elected. It was one of the biggest things they rallied against. Being that, if it were that prevalent, it would have had some impact on my life and it has not, it's hard not to call bullshit.

If it were some big overriding liberal idea, I feel like it would be something I would have had to contend with at some point. So again, it's hard for me to say this is an actual issue America has to deal with when I'm not sure it's an actual issue that a state that prides itself on progressiveness has to deal with. It's anecdotal, it's not data, but where's the data to counter my point then? Where's the non-anecdotal evidence that this has had any impact? Or that it even might?
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:26 pm

It’s not going to lead to legislation. Let’s cut to the chase: do you think I am exaggerating, lying, or imagining things? And if so, why would I perpetuate this? And why would you assume I would?
Where's the non-anecdotal evidence that this has had any impact?
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... y-offended

61% democrats think people need to be "more careful" with language vs. 21% of republicans.

I'd point to the election as "impact".
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by Deacon » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:34 pm

A couple days ago an Asian man in his 50's takes a gun onto the University of a Washington campus, shoots a white Bernie Sanders supporter, and claims it was self defense because he mistook the Bernie bro for a conservative and therefore a racist. This as part of the violence and threats of violence by students and area residents against any conservatives being allowed on campus.

Meanwhile candidates vying for the DNC chair are trying to out-liberal each other, insisting white Democrats are the problem. That there isn't enough training on "how to shut their mouths if they're white." And they're spreading the notion that all black people should now have "justified fear" that they will be killed since Trump was elected.

The NY Times and pretty much every other publication disagrees with you and agrees with NorCo when he says identity politics are front and center and eclipses all else. Yes, you live in Boston, unique in a number of ways include its own shade of blue. But you're wrong that it's invented or made up.

Yes, it's true that urban coastal millennials have a more visible profile and tend to more often embrace liberal PC safe spaces and such. And that also means universities, bastion of unemployable idealist, tend to foment the most ludicrous examples, plantinting initial seeds and fanning flames where they can.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:41 pm

Deacon wrote:Meanwhile candidates vying for the DNC chair are trying to out-liberal each other, insisting white Democrats are the problem. That there isn't enough training on "how to shut their mouths if they're white."
This is 100% true. Sally Brown is a candidate for the DNC chair. Let's see what she's saying:
My job is to shut other white people down when they want to say, oh no I'm not prejudiced, I'm a Democrat. I'm accepting... My job is to make sure that they get that they have privilege and until we shut our mouths and we listen to those people who don’t and we lift our people up so that we all have equity in this country … we’re not going to break through this.
Sound familiar? And of course Sally is white and talking and this is not ironic at all.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:44 pm

NorthernComfort wrote:It’s not going to lead to legislation.
Then it's not a menace in any significant way and we shouldn't pretend it's an issue to give the Breitbarts of the world what they want. There is no threat of censorship. There is no threat of anything that should be considered the least bit threatening. The threat we imagine out of this mentality is not real. It is a problem in the sense a kitten is related to a lion. It is nothing to be concerned about.
NorthernComfort wrote:Let’s cut to the chase: do you think I am exaggerating, lying, or imagining things?
Based on what I know about you on this forum, I would consider you to be a progressive person, or at least much moreso than I on the political spectrum.

I think you have a couple of friends who are well off to the extreme in that regard, and that you are extrapolating their ideals to actually be some kind of a movement that could potentially gain any real power.

I know for a fact that the easily offended are not a new phenomenon. So when certain people go on about "SJWs" (as in a video linked in this thread) I think they're giving a name to a thing that has existed for longer than any of us have been alive and has never been more than the opinions of a few.

Why do I think that? Partly because it too conveniently fits the worldview of the people who decry the actions of these extreme liberals. It sounds way too much like what they want to believe about progressive parts of the country.

So I suppose I would file it under exaggeration.

Now since I've acknowledged your anecdotal evidence, what about mine? Why is it not relevant to this discussion that I am seeing none of this stuff around me, in a place where it's supposed to be prevalent? Would that not imply that the impact of this mentality is, at the moment, so minimal that it isn't even taking much root in the friendliest possible environment? It's a stereotype of people in progressive areas, so the fact that I'm not witnessing it among my neighbors is cause for skepticism on my part.

And this is important, because a lot of people with a soapbox out there want you to believe that The Progressives are coming. This was used as a call to mobilize a bunch of people. And it worked, by the way. A growing number of people are railing against censorship that has never been proposed and people who might not even want to propose it if they could.
Yes, it's true that urban coastal millennials have a more visible profile and tend to more often embrace liberal PC safe spaces and such. And that also means universities, bastion of unemployable idealist, tend to foment the most ludicrous examples, plantinting initial seeds and fanning flames where they can.
Explain to me why I should be one iota concerned that this is any kind of a threat to anything I care about. To me, it is a complete non-issue, and an easy way for people to stereotype those with whom they disagree because that's easier than considering any other angles.

It really doesn't seem to threaten a single thing.

Nobody is under threat, freedom of speech is just fine, there should be no time spent on worrying about what those damn millennials do or what those SJWs that hurt nobody do.
I'd point to the election as "impact".
It is. People lied about the menace here, others bought it, and it helped lead to Trump's election. This fiction has already set us further apart and it needs to end.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:49 pm

It is nothing to be concerned about.
Well I really disagree, if there is a splintering of the Democratic party or specific issues that prevent the party from generating a unifying platform, the party pretty much ceases to be a functional entity and will be consumed by infighting. I'm concerned.
you are extrapolating their ideals to actually be some kind of a movement that could potentially gain any real power.
Did you listen to any of the speakers at the march on washington? They aren't my friends, but they are the voices and faces of an actual movement that is currently more powerful than the democratic establishment.
Why is it not relevant to this discussion that I am seeing none of this stuff around me, in a place where it's supposed to be prevalent?
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially given the tomes of evidence being written about this topic every day.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:59 pm

NorthernComfort wrote:Well I really disagree, if there is a splintering of the Democratic party or specific issues that prevent the party from generating a unifying platform, the party pretty much ceases to be a functional entity and will be consumed by infighting. I'm concerned.
Well that sounds like team sports, to me, and if you want to be into team sports then I can suggest a whole lot of them.
NorthernComfort wrote:Did you listen to any of the speakers at the march on washington?
Not one thing they said sounded the least bit extreme to me. It probably did to the Racist Rights Movement that is the alt-right. But frankly as far as I'm concerned it sounded pretty reasonable. It's suddenly extreme to ask people to consider that others have different experiences from them? It's somehow a threat to anybody's rights?

Have we talked about anything so far that is more than a matter of opinion, that could be at all manifested in policy? Are rights under threat? Again, this is sometimes brought up as a first amendment issue, but I fail to see how the first amendment is under the slightest threat. If someone says something you disagree with, theoretically you're free to call them on it. Is there anything more than that going on that I am somehow oblivious to?

If they are not, and they are most decidedly not, then there is absolutely no issue here. It sounds a lot like the "War on Christmas" every year.
NorthernComfort wrote:Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially given the tomes of evidence being written about this topic every day.
So what should I be concerned about in relation to this? Suppose I were to believe this is any sort of a problem or that a single human being has done anything wrong here. What should I be worried about? That's where the lie comes in, to me. That's where the imagined menaces come in. Nothing is under threat. You hear people talk about this issue, you'd think something would be.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by Deacon » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:02 pm

Super fun watch. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7f2_1474514675

Maybe it's the self righteousness that gets underneath people's skin so much.

And Cod, if you only allow legislation to count as detrimental, I don't know how or why to even discuss any other else with you, much less this.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:08 pm

I really need someone to try and explain what is under threat, what is at stake, why this is an issue people are concerned about. In short, why is it not okay for these people to say what they are saying? What is the actual issue here?

Because a cultural argument about what should and should not be acceptable, if that's all it is, is a harmless point of manners and little else. Is there something more going on?

This was a major sentiment that came up during the last election and helped lead to how it turned out. I simply don't get it. I don't see what the problem is. Could you explain to me why this is a thing that people should get upset about? Clearly, I'm at a loss. Maybe the horrible people got to me and I just don't know I've been brainwashed.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:28 pm

I really need someone to try and explain what is under threat, what is at stake, why this is an issue people are concerned about.
The future of the Democratic party, and thus US politics.
In short, why is it not okay for these people to say what they are saying? What is the actual issue here?
They can say whatever they want, it’s America! But talk has consequences. The big one is that we lost an election against a maniac, and we need to figure out exactly why so we don’t continually lose elections. One side of the party thinks we need to cater to WWC and eschew racially-charged intersectionality since it’s off-putting and alienating to WWC and majority of Americans. Other side of the party say they can’t support the party unless we embraces racially-charged intersectionality. Both sides are arguing their case: Sanders people say we lost a lot of voters to Trump on trade and jobs, while the other camp says we had lower minority turnout because Hillary didn’t do enough to change the perception that she represented the old white party and not the minority interests. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle of these two perspectives, but right now both sides have dug in their heels, convinced they see the right way forward. How do you compromise when one side literally tells the other not to speak? It's a total mess, because these are the two core coalitions that form the base of the Democratic party, and right now they're practically at each others throats.

Personally I think telling half of your party's base to shut up and stop contributing ideas but instead listen to some political new-comers is a recipe for election suicide. So that's why I don't like what they're saying. It's not just personally egregious (after all, I'm a pretty liberal white guy with a decent chunk of crap between my ears), but it's a self-defeating strategy looking to next election cycle.

I think the proof is in the pudding: we lost the election, and PC culture was a good talking point for Trump and the right to mock the entire state of the left. So those are the stakes. I think they’re pretty high.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:39 pm

NorthernComfort wrote:The future of the Democratic party, and thus US politics.
Beyond sounding like hyperbole, what about someone who believes that the two party system and increasing polarization is, in and of itself, the biggest problem facing America today? My hope for both major parties is that they reach fewer and fewer people until the common voter gets sick of it and finds another option. Unfortunately, this hope hinges on an attractive option emerging, which I very much doubt.
NorthernComfort wrote:he big one is that we lost an election against a maniac, and we need to figure out exactly why so we don’t continually lose elections.
Part of it is that they were able to successfully convince Americans that an extreme group within one party is a menace when in fact they are not. Misinformation and exaggeration won the day.

Also, "we" nothing, I'm a registered Libertarian and damn proud of it. Which is why I'm concerned with people whose rights and civil liberties are being targeted by active politicians right now. Namely, the executive branch.
NorthernComfort wrote:I think the proof is in the pudding: we lost the election, and PC culture was a good talking point for Trump and the right to mock the entire state of the left. So those are the stakes. I think they’re pretty high.
They were a good talking point because they were exaggerated to the point that people believed them to be a menace. And people believed it at face value because it fit their existing worldview about people who declare themselves to be progressive. We continue to believe it, because it continues to fit a specific worldview.

It is, however, tremendously exaggerated. Nobody's rights are under threat. Nobody is doing anything wrong or being accused of doing anything wrong. The worst that will happen is that some rude, holier-than-thou person chooses to exercise their first amendment rights to call you out on something you said.

As someone who has a good list of major sticking points within the DNC platform myself, I'll tell you their political correctness is extremely low on the list, partly because they don't really keep to it themselves so I don't see them imposing it on the rest of us.

Trump did use this stuff to get elected. I believe his administration's term for it is "alternative facts."
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:53 pm

Beyond sounding like hyperbole, what about someone who believes that the two party system and increasing polarization is, in and of itself, the biggest problem facing America today?
Well, if you hate the 2-party system, watching the Democratic party implode would actually be a decent outcome. Personally I think this is sort of nihilistic, like people who voted for Trump because they thought he’d “shake things up” or break our existing government. Do we really want to see Trump consolidate power at the same time the opposition party crumbles under its own incompetency? That’s terrifying to me.
Also, "we" nothing, I'm a registered Libertarian and damn proud of it.
I’m Independent and consider myself a liberal-tarian but given that I worked on the Hillary campaign I might as well just lump myself in with my former colleagues. It’s probably good to point that out - I’ve seen a ton of the behind the scenes infighting between these two factions. It’s not just stupid posts on Facebook. This is the issue that is splintering the party.
It is, however, tremendously exaggerated. Nobody's rights are under threat. Nobody is doing anything wrong or being accused of doing anything wrong. The worst that will happen is that some rude, holier-than-thou person chooses to exercise their first amendment rights to call you out on something you said.
I get that we’re all keyboard warriors here, so we can all laugh at the idea of being silenced by some holier-than-thou self-righteous prick.

But here’s a fun little detail: I didn’t talk politics with anybody at the Hillary campaign. And I love to talk politics! I was opposed to Trump, yeah, but did I talk issues with my coworkers? Nope. Why is that? Multiple choice, your guess:

A: I am secretly deaf and mute
B: I saw no value in discussing issues on a political campaign
C: I smell really, really bad
D: I witnessed several incidents of language policing within my first few days on the campaign and decided to keep my mouth shut.

Gee, wonder what it was.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:02 pm

NorthernComfort wrote:Personally I think this is sort of nihilistic, like people who voted for Trump because they thought he’d “shake things up” or break our existing government. Do we really want to see Trump consolidate power at the same time the opposition party crumbles under its own incompetency? That’s terrifying to me.
I live in a one-party system, and I'll tell you for a fact it's not that great.

See here in Massachusetts, we legalized Marijuana back in November with a series of stipulations about how the state can and cannot issue licenses for the stores we were to have starting in 2018. Since then, state legislators have moved that date back by six months, and are pursuing every way possible to make sure they get more fees from licensure and get to issue fewer licenses if they want. They are actively overriding the will of the people and they do not care.

In that light, while I detest Donald Trump and everything his administration stands for, I cannot fault voters who believe that politicians have failed and we need to try something different. I just think he was a poor choice in "something different." To put it extremely mildly.
NorthernComfort wrote:But here’s a fun little detail: I didn’t talk politics with anybody at the Hillary campaign. And I love to talk politics! I was opposed to Trump, yeah, but did I talk issues with my coworkers? Nope. Why is that? Multiple choice, your guess:
As we're talking about politics here, the only answer I care about is "you were restricted by policy." As that is not true, this is a cultural argument and not a political one. Making it a political one has only worsened our divide, the one that directly resulted in the election of Donald Trump mind you.

While I feel for you that you were bullied by people, if you ask me your problem was not one with freedom of speech (as you had the freedom to call each of them out on their aggressive behavior whether you did or did not for professional reasons) but with how dissent within parties is squashed. Perhaps seek out people who don't treat politics as an Us versus Them scenario. If you ask me, the Democratic Party often tells its constituents to shut up and think what they tell people to think. I don't see this as a political correctness issue so much as a symptom of the disease that's eating the middle ground and hurting us all.
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