Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by Deacon » Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:46 pm

It's a parody of a real mentality. Well, I should clarify that such a mentality does exist as represented, but it's certainly an extreme minority--but far more prevalent in the under-25's than my generation.

I found this to be a super interesting article about the kind of stuff that those obnoxious and arrogant social justice warriors shout about without actually accomplishing anything (or at least certainly not their goal)... http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-helpful-a ... questions/

It helps make it easier to understand why people hang onto the view of anyone other than them as a nebulous but at least mildly cohesive group. And here's a very recent and somewhat related article by the same author. I like his style. http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-t ... lks-about/
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by raptor9k » Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:57 pm


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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:08 pm

Deacon wrote:It's a parody of a real mentality.
One that is neither new, specific to "progressives," specific to young people, or at all a menace to anything. Yet it's often presented as an attack on a way of life. I find this not only absurd but incredibly dangerous, and the very kind of thing that leads to our most toxic rhetoric. It is the same kind of laziness with which some of my neighbors stereotype all "conservatives" as gun-crazed racists who want to intervene in every other country's business.

I cannot stress enough how badly we need to snap back. There need to stop being completely false narratives about what the local mentality's opposition believes or wants to do. It is leading us down a path that resulted in Sarah Palin and Donald Trump and that's only getting warmed up. What's going to happen when it isn't a moron? What happens when someone who really knows how to ride that awful mentality shows up?

We can't keep just perpetuating this crap. This social justice crap is not a problem. It's not even much of a real thing, and that which is is merely part of the same mentality that Tipper Gore used in the old PMRC, the same mentality that got George Bush Sr. to lecture people for watching The Simpsons, the same mentality that led to all sorts of rules about what ought and oughtn't be portrayed in old movies and other pieces of fiction.

The "left" and the "right" so badly need to come to terms with how they have way more in common than different.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:24 pm

Just to reiterate, I do not believe the following things exist in a significant enough form to talk about as real phenomena:
-Safe spaces
-Trigger warnings
-Social Justice Warriors
-A "PC" menace

People who have sold you on these beliefs are hurting us all. It's not real, it's simply a few isolated news stories being blown out of proportion to stereotype large parts of the country as "against you."

Dirty comedians still work college campuses. Just heard Jeff Ross interviewed a couple of weeks ago where he didn't understand why other comics wouldn't want to play campuses. Keep in mind what his act is. But hey, a bunch of comics who have no trouble whatsoever finding work made a thing once about how their freedom to push boundaries is under attack, even though if that were true they would have difficulties finding work.

It's a flat out pack of lies and so many people just buy them on the surface. What's more, it prevents real discussion of the underlying issues about where our boundaries should or should not be. It prevents all discussion, because preventing people who generally lean conservative from having any kind of middle ground with people who lean liberal is basically an industry today. Likewise, equally horrible stereotypes about places generally identified as "red states" get tossed around from time to time, and anyone who's been to any of those places should laugh them off on sight. But of course they don't. Some people who would rather entrench themselves would rather believe that the rank and file people who live in the south are filled with hatred and worship firearms.

These stereotypes are dangerous, and they hinder any chance we have of rising above our petty issues and figuring out where we really want to go next.

There is no such thing as a PC menace.
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Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by raptor9k » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:22 pm

I don't think anyone has suggested that the majority of students at the majority of colleges are experiencing these movements. Nor do I think these idiots are after my freedom. I DO believe this is a growing phenomenon and WILL negatively influence things in the future. Most likely it will stay in the areas that are already known for this type of stupidity. I do believe this is just another result of the social media feedback loop (both the origins and the hype associated with the movement) that most people tend to surround themselves with. Thus-far I've yet to see this type of thing outside a college campus but these idiots have to graduate at some point.

Professors aren't helping...

http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/09/ ... r-warnings

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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:26 pm

The Cid wrote:I do not believe the following things exist in a significant enough form to talk about as real phenomena… People who have sold you on these beliefs are hurting us all. It's not real, it's simply a few isolated news stories being blown out of proportion to stereotype large parts of the country as "against you.”
I encounter this stuff on a daily basis, and see my liberal acquaintances attempt to out-liberal each other on a daily basis, by using intersectionality and their identity as bludgeons against anybody else speaking. It’s peacocking, and it’s stupid, but it’s totally real and unbelievably damaging.

I don’t speak to these people about politics or anything serious. I know that the conversation will immediately start to focus on social justice and that my personal viewpoints aren’t aligned with the canonically Liberal Correct Viewpoint. This is original sin in their eyes.

And let’s keep in mind that I’m a pretty liberal guy myself. But I’m a bit libertarian, and I think too much about “other” (lesser!) issues than social justice to actually be able to contribute to any discussion among liberals. They can smell the blood of an unapologetic white guy 10 miles away, and it really doesn’t take them more than two hamfisted metaphors before I am lumped into Trump supporters for not 100% goose-stepping into their beliefs.

Now imagine if I were actually a Trump supporter. Good grief.

It’s a big country, we don’t along, and to explain the lack of dialog liberals have conjured up a new reality in which we CAN’T get along.

I don't know any college students and haven't spent any time on campuses, so I dunno about blaming liberal colleges. I see this line of thinking pretty much everywhere these days.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:29 pm

I live in one of the most liberal parts of one of the bluest states in the country.

I have encountered precisely none of this. Not one bit. Not in Boston, not in Cambridge (the people who brought you Senator Elizabeth Warren). None of these phrases exist as anything but a joke to anybody I know.

You would think I would get taken to task for having Libertarian views in a place that believes the Elected Class are our societal betters and should tell us how we ought live our lives. Rarely happens, and when it does it's an economics discussion. I'm a Capitalist. I actually declare that in public in Cambridge. Nobody blows any whistles.

The colleges I know, the only thing close to a "safe space" on campus is a space for the religious to freely congregate and practice their religion without interference from, for example, more strident atheists. In other words it's a "safe space" for the Mike Pences of the world. Yet we act like this stuff's prevalent, and real.

It's not real, it's imagined, and it's dangerous that people have dreamed it up.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:36 pm

raptor9k wrote:Most likely it will stay in the areas that are already known for this type of stupidity.
My personal belief, and I feel extremely strongly about this, is that these things were created so that you could further stereotype those areas and not have to consider or listen to them.
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Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:38 pm

So my personal experience is very different than your personal experience.

To me that sounds like these ideas have a strong network effect and doesn't survive in isolation. It also hinges on having a pretty diverse group of acquaintances- I only know a couple white people who spout this stuff on the regular. Your opinion is that the phenomena just plain out don't exist. But they do, as I have told you. Am I lying, imagining things, giving alternative facts? No. It's two different experiences. I think dismissing it is pretty dangerous, especially if the reasoning is just that you haven't encountered it.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:43 pm

NorthernComfort wrote:Your opinion is that the phenomena just plain out don't exist.
Outside of a few isolated, harmless, and not at all malicious people, they don't. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is under threat here. There is no menace here. There are a few people who believe extreme things who have been turned into an overriding stereotype.
NorthernComfort wrote:I think dismissing it is pretty dangerous, especially if the reasoning is just that you haven't encountered it.
No, what's dangerous is turning people who have done nothing wrong into an enemy that is out to get you.

That is dangerous, it is hurting all of us, and it is making it so we have fewer and fewer options for what to do about it.

We cannot keep believing these exaggerations and blatant untruths. On both sides. Stop stereotyping and vilifying people who have done nothing wrong.
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Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by raptor9k » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:48 pm

I've never known or seen someone murdered before and I live in one of the most gun rich states in the union and work in one of the highest crime rate cities, for its size, so we must not have a problem with violence. Anecdote <> data.

It probably depends on the types of people you're hanging out with and how much time you spend on social media Cid. I've only seen it online, personally, but I have seen actual people I know from other forums in my Facebook feed post things supporting nonsense like this. It doesn't take a huge amount of skill or time to find several articles from reliable sources about this particular emerging problem.

We're not 'turning people who have done nothing wrong into an enemy', we're calling them fuckwits and avoiding them if at all possible.

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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:51 pm

raptor9k wrote: I've only seen it online, personally
Online being the same place that you can see people anonymously recite hateful things so they can giggle like schoolchildren at going outside of taboo?

And what is there is definitely not new. There have always been people who are easily offended and voice their imagined pain regularly. Why we consider it new, or put it on one group of people, is beyond me. Other than the obvious "stereotyping makes it easier to dismiss people" of course.
raptor9k wrote:emerging problem.
Minor nuisance at the absolute most and I think even that gives it all too much credit.
raptor9k wrote:We're not 'turning people who have done nothing wrong into an enemy', we're calling them fuckwits and avoiding them if at all possible.
Except if you look around the political climate, this is definitely becoming a part of the divide, and people are giving it a lot more credence than it deserves.

It is dangerous. It is even more dangerous that some people might take it as a reason to flat out ignore entire parts of the country.

Parts that, as I keep insisting and nobody would call me out on, have done nothing wrong. At all.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:02 pm

So one of the big questions facing the Democratic party is why they lost the election. Most people are wondering if it's because the Democrats didn't go progressive enough, or if they need to cater back to the center & white working class.

The issue of social justice and devotion to identity politics is FRONT AND CENTER to this whole internal debate in the party. It's a bigger deal than the party's economic platform, because it's divisive, because it's holding the party back, and because it's possibly why we just an election. (Oh, and a big chunk of the party literally won't talk about economic platforms without first integrating intersectionality as the core tenet, because this is how democrats talk in 2017)

Sorry, but saying this is a minor nuisance at the absolute most is just incorrect. This is at the heart of the debate over the future of a major wing of politics.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:05 pm

You're right, in a way.

It's a debate that, by existing, has helped give rise to the alt-right, that has turned this minor nuisance into a looming menace. And people bought it.

It is a stereotype that has made it easy for one part of the country to just ignore another.

Nothing that has come from this debate has been anything but harmful. People have created a fake menace and used it for tremendous gain.

My evidence may be anecdotal, but it's really hard to believe that if this were such a fundamental issue for the Democratic Party that I would be so doubtful of its existence, living in one of their testing grounds for more progressive ideas and all.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by raptor9k » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:14 pm

The Cid wrote:Online being the same place that you can see people anonymously recite hateful things so they can giggle like schoolchildren at going outside of taboo?
Last I checked, Facebook doesn't afford a great deal of anonymity. This is not something people post anonymously for fear of reaction. They're praised by their little feedback loops for this type of stuff.

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