Far right socialist

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Deacon
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Far right socialist

Post by Deacon » Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:24 am

I realize this may be a dumb question, and Google might could answer this. But why do people call the National Socialist German Worker's Party far right, sometimes used as a pejorative lobbed at American "conservatives".
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: Far right socialist

Post by NorthernComfort » Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:05 am

Simply put: Nazis weren't actually socialists. I don't know why they put it in the party title. It was probably just a way to get leftist support early on before they realized what was up, and then why change it? In any case, the main source of socialism during that time was reactions for or against Bolshevism, and Hitler was convinced that Bolshevism was a Jewish conspiracy... check out Judeo-Bolshevism if you want to see some truly warped anti-Semitic thought.

And why do we call Nazis and fascists far right as well as American conservatives? Well we consider them both to be to the right. It doesn't mean that they're the same thing. It just means they have more in common with right-wing ideologies than leftist ideologies.

Oh, wait, and Republicans are all secretly Nazis! :lol:

Okay okay.... GENERALLY .... Right wingers are anti-immigration... so are far-right European political groups, the most notorious of which would be the Nazis.

But this is all very charged and goes straight to Godwin's law. There are a lot of things that evoke right wing or left wing comparisons. But perceived racism or xenophobia or authoritarian tendencies tends to get called "right wing".
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Re: Far right socialist

Post by Deacon » Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:25 am

So basically a combination of political opportunism and the vagaries of labeling.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: Far right socialist

Post by NorthernComfort » Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:26 am

Bingo!
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Re: Far right socialist

Post by The Cid » Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:38 pm

Deacon wrote: American "conservatives".
This may be yet another problem stemming from trying to put hundreds of millions of voters under one of exactly two umbrellas and saying those are well-defined and easily-identifiable groups of somewhat homogeneous people.

The "left-right" spectrum needs to be retired. I find it so difficult to put social conservatives and fiscal conservatives in the same group. They have so very little in common.
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Re: Far right socialist

Post by Deacon » Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:18 pm

Well. That all depends on how you define them, doesn't it? :)

But yeah, I know exactly what you mean, and it's a continual source of frustration.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: Far right socialist

Post by The Cid » Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:54 pm

If I may be optimistic for a moment here, I think what happens after this election might be the beginning of something amazing. How many people on both sides of the aisle are realizing right now that their personal ideals really don't match up with their party platform at all? I imagine it's a higher number than usual.

We might be waking up to the reality that the enemy of my enemy is not my friend. Which is about time, now if we could get to work on the part where Americans in violation of nothing are considered the enemy of other Americans in violation of nothing, we'd really get somewhere.
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Re: Far right socialist

Post by Deacon » Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:08 pm

Well...maybe? I mean, that would be incredible, but I don't see the establishment letting go, and I don't see enough people being aware enough that they reach that conclusion on their own. Trump is not winning on irony alone. He has actual voters--lots of them--thinking he really is what we need in the White House.

Now, keep in mind that the primaries are always skewed. They generally bring out the wingnuts on both sides, and that's who's being courted. While voter participation in the real election is also shamefully low, it's not just the extremist base that comes out, but the regular people, too.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: Far right socialist

Post by NorthernComfort » Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:41 pm

I find it pretty hard to look at the inevitable Clinton presidency and feel anything remotely resembling optimism.
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Re: Far right socialist

Post by The Cid » Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:02 pm

People leaving both parties and not just assuming that everything should be a heated battle between "enemies" who frankly have zero business being enemies. That's the optimism I take from this.

We will get nowhere, politically, until these two massive juggernaut parties are no longer able to wield more power than every single voter in this country combined.
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Re: Far right socialist

Post by Deacon » Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:48 pm

It doesn't have to be as hopeless as all that, but I'm not seeing a lot to give hope at the moment.

PS Everyone should watch this.

The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: Far right socialist

Post by Dreamer » Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:03 pm

NorthernComfort wrote:I find it pretty hard to look at the inevitable Clinton presidency and feel anything remotely resembling optimism.
And I'm wondering if that right there is what's going to cause a ea-party style movement on the liberal side.

I'm a registered democrat. I voted for Bernie in this most recent primary. And the fact that he may lose a the nomination at the DNC come July is disheartening. Because he's be pretty close to securing a popular vote. But establishment democrats than make up the "superdelegates" don't need to make nominatinos based on popular vote.

So just wait... That's what will happen. Clinton will get nominated, despite not being even remotely popularly supported by this entire country. Because this party literally has many, MANY delegates who can nominate in opposition to popular vote. How screwed up is that? I mean, whose party I this, anyway? Honestly...

And we'll just have to choke down a little vomit and vote for her.

But yesterday? Yesterday I felt pride and voted for Bernie. :)
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Re: Far right socialist

Post by Deacon » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:33 pm

Unsurprisingly it was the Austin area that went for Bernie in a sea of establishment voters who did as they were told and voted Hillary.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: Far right socialist

Post by The Cid » Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:58 am

Dreamer wrote:And I'm wondering if that right there is what's going to cause a ea-party style movement on the liberal side.
It may, but look at the Tea Party and despair.

Remember, the Tea Party basically started out as a response to people who supported Ron Paul and got swept under the rug by social conservatives who want nothing to do with fiscal conservatives because oppression and military action are not necessarily the best use of the dollar.

Now it's guys like Ted Cruz, and a kind of more vocal version of what used to be simply called the "religious right." Because the people who have been doing this for decades, the kind of people guys like Hunter S. Thompson wrote millions of words about, were just simply not going to let this non-Elephant/non-Jackass political movement that couldn't really be described as liberal or conservative as a whole thrive.

What's the left going to do to Bernie Sanders' supporters? It's going to change them into whatever the left's version of the Tea Party is. And the message will absolutely be left on the cutting floor.

Because Bernie has some interesting ideas (with which I disagree fiercely, but who the Hell am I anyway), but the rest of the party has numbers, experience, expertise, and they show no mercy.

Yes, I'm using strong language. I apologize for that if it seems a bit over the top. But it really is how I feel. These big parties are machines. They will grind up anything that falls into them and process it into whatever they see fit.

Maybe even breaking them up wouldn't change much. Maybe it'd just make more machines. Maybe we're already in the grey goo phase of government.
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Re: Far right socialist

Post by Deacon » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:43 am

They've done such a good job of setting each other up as the enemy that must be defeated at all costs that it's going to take something bigger to jar the establishment loose.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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