Charleson, SC shooting

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NorthernComfort
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by NorthernComfort » Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:02 am

My guess is that SCOTUS is going to be totally re-arranged over the next 10-15 years and the new appointees will skew very hard left - simply because GOP doesn't look like they'll get their shit together. Then we're in for a very wild ride. But that's neither here nor there at the moment.

At least our new liberal overlords can overturn citizens united and protect roe v. wade. And the rest will go to hell in a handbasket.
"I guess I have a gift for expressing pedestrian tastes. In a way, it's kind of depressing." -Bill Watterson

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Deacon
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Deacon » Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:04 am

No, unfortunately I think you're right.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Deacon » Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:44 am

Since it's somewhat on topic, I guess I'll share this that I wrote briefly in response to the following post from famously Christian recording artist Steven Curtis Chapman: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153175122692949

I'm not sure love really had the last word here, Steven. Love doesn't always win. Not in Charleston, not in Auschwitz, not in Cambodia, or any number of places and times throughout recorded human history. That doesn't make love less valuable. But it cheapens love's value and impact to suggest it never fails and always has the last word--especially in direct response to a case where that failure is illustrated so spectacularly in such a loveless tragedy.

People, the world isn't beautiful because love always wins. It doesn't. We only recognize the beautiful parts of the universe in the face of that which is anything but. Love is beautiful and should be treasured and encouraged BECAUSE it doesn't always win, and sometimes it fails.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Martin Blank
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Martin Blank » Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:10 pm

NorthernComfort wrote:I'm genuinely curious if you could cite a single person who claims "you don't need a gun, just call the police if someone's breaking in, etc".
I can't give you the names of any specific people, as I can't find any public people and I'm hesitant to quote friends with private Facebook profiles, but I assure you that I have many times seen such statements made by friends. "Leave the house" or "Call the cops" are common refrains, but they leave out cases where fleeing is not possible (e.g., when backed into an essentially inescapable room) or is impractical (e.g., escaping a second story while trying to bring two small children with you), or where the response time of law enforcement may not be a few minutes but 20+ minutes, as may be the case for rural residents where a sheriff may actually need to be awakened to respond to a call.

I own firearms. I'm proud to own them. Coming up soon, I expect to take the course for a CCW. But even then, I know there are limitations. Even sleeping with a gun within easy reach, the odds of getting a shot off in a hot burglary scenario are limited. I'd have to carry a gun with me to avoid a similar issue during the day. Coming home from the neighborhood pool (or inside from one's own pool. though we don't have one) would raise the possibility of confronting an intruder without having a gun on me.

Owning a firearm isn't a guaranteed solution. It lowers certain risks but it raises others. I've accepted the trade-offs, and will work to minimize the various risks. The same situation applies with the police: they're not a guaranteed solution, with a different risk profile. It's the combination of having available police and available firearms that makes me feel more safe.
If I show up at your door, chances are you did something to bring me there.

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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Deacon » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:22 pm

Well said. However...
Martin Blank wrote:where the response time of law enforcement may not be a few minutes
When seconds count, police are only minutes away. You are the first responder when under attack. And those attackers usually don't hang out and have some tea while waiting for the cops to arrive.

Additionally, while fleeing may be a tactically sound option in some cases, and some may choose to do so, I object strongly to those who would insist that you have a moral duty to flee or surrender in the face of attackers, and especially when they attempt to legislate that morality to compel you to do so with the force of law. The "lay back and take it and hope it's over soon" crowd infuriate me.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Martin Blank
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Martin Blank » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:39 pm

Deacon wrote:Well said. However...
Martin Blank wrote:where the response time of law enforcement may not be a few minutes
When seconds count, police are only minutes away. You are the first responder when under attack. And those attackers usually don't hang out and have some tea while waiting for the cops to arrive.

Additionally, while fleeing may be a tactically sound option in some cases, and some may choose to do so, I object strongly to those who would insist that you have a moral duty to flee or surrender in the face of attackers, and especially when they attempt to legislate that morality to compel you to do so with the force of law. The "lay back and take it and hope it's over soon" crowd infuriate me.
There are a lot of cases where fleeing, even when I'm armed, is a solid and even better choice. Most people can do no better than twice their best target range diameter in a crisis situation. If your circle is usually four inches, you can expect an average eight-inch spread. That moves from lethal to potentially non-lethal or even missing quickly, so I take that into consideration.

If I'm outnumbered, it makes more sense, especially as the remaining criminal(s) may have even more reason to take me down since an accomplice dying in a crime is grounds for murder against the surviving accomplice(s) in most states. Some people are willing to kill over possessions. I'm not.

Now, once I have children, the situation may be different. Their bedroom will be on the opposite side of the house from me. Me fleeing leaves them open to harm, and that won't happen. But it's a decision that has to be made on a case-by-case basis, and it's impossible to cover all the variables here.
If I show up at your door, chances are you did something to bring me there.

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Deacon
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Deacon » Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:03 am

As I said, I don't disagree. You should absolutely be free to flee if that's what you think is best. What I disagree with is those who would compel you to do so with the force of law, criminalizing your right to self defense.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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