Charleson, SC shooting

Perspectives on our world and our universe, how it works, what is happening, and why it happens. Whether by a hidden hand or natural laws, we come together to hash it out, and perhaps provide a little bit of education and enlightenment for others. This is a place for civil discussion. Please keep it that way.
Forum rules
1) Remain civil. Respect others' rights to their viewpoints, even if you believe them to be completely wrong.
2) Sourcing your information is highly recommended. Plagiarism will get you banned.
3) Please create a new thread for a new topic, even if you think it might not get a lot of responses. Do not create mega-threads.
4) If you think the subject of a thread is not important enough to merit a post, simply avoid posting in it. If enough people agree, it will fall off the page soon enough.
User avatar
NorthernComfort
Crazy Person
Posts: 2745
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 8:13 pm
Real Name: Alex
Gender: Male
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by NorthernComfort » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:15 pm

Martin Blank wrote:The NRA's tactic, and what I think The Cid was trying to get at, was to essentially blame the victims for not allowing guns into the church. It doesn't seem to have crossed their minds that several people would likely have died anyway even if there had been a concealed carry.
Deacon wrote:You happen to know if SC is one of the states that criminalize self defense in churches?
I just find it absurd that to suggest that pastors should carry in their own churches, while conducting a bible study class. It boggles the mind that this is even on people’s mental radars.

They tried to talk him out of it, and were so welcoming that he claimed he nearly backed away from his plans. That’s the type of self defense a church has, and all I'd ever wish to see in a sane society.

No realistic legislation would ever ban owning .45s and a few magazines, so I think it’s much more prudent to look at other ways of preventing this: stifling virulent racism in the South, improving education in rural areas, stopping kids from dropping out in 9th grade, etc… there are no easy answers, and no cure-alls.
"I guess I have a gift for expressing pedestrian tastes. In a way, it's kind of depressing." -Bill Watterson

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 43995
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Deacon » Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:48 pm

NorthernComfort wrote:I just find it absurd that to suggest that pastors should carry in their own churches, while conducting a bible study class. It boggles the mind that this is even on people’s mental radars.
Yes, nature is casually crazy. But I'm far less concerned about the pastor than whether it's illegal for the congregation/attendees with the proper concealed handgun licenses to be armed in church. If so, that's horrible. If it's not, though, then great. Then it becomes an individual's choice of whether to exercise that right.

I realize my perspective on this might be different than some due in no small part to having grown up with a father in federal law enforcement that was armed (concealed and discrete) everywhere he went, including commercial aircraft, and yes, church.

You can wish all you want about a "sane society" and daydream about The Way Things Should Be. But our society is made up of over 320 million people in this country alone. Even leaving mental illness aside, you don't have control over how each of those people are raised, the values instilled in them, etiquette about hollering in a movie theater, whether killing blacks is a good idea, any of it. You can only do your part to help get the social pressure moved in the direction you think is best and then arm yourself against those who would do you harm.

PS I thought Charleston had a police department. Why didn't someone just call the police, so that nobody would have died? They're uniformly good, capable, and skilled people who show up in sufficient numbers the very instant someone feels alarm, and therefore all the protection we will ever need. Right?
Last edited by Martin Blank on Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed unnecessary racial language. -- MB
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
NorthernComfort
Crazy Person
Posts: 2745
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 8:13 pm
Real Name: Alex
Gender: Male
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by NorthernComfort » Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:41 pm

Even leaving mental illness aside, you don't have control over how each of those people are raised, the values instilled in them, etiquette about hollering in a movie theater, whether killing blacks is a good idea, any of it
That was totally unnecessary.
PS I thought Charleston had a police department. Why didn't someone just call the police, so that nobody would have died?
Show some maturity and respect. There is a time and a place for sarcasm and this isn't it.

I can't stomach much more of Deacon that topic, which I think can be summarized as "Kill or be killed. Winter is coming. Grab your guns. From my cold dead hands. Phallic symbolism. Guns Guns Guns."

Nikki Haley has called for the Confederate flag to be removed from state grounds. I remember it being moved down a decade ago. It's about time it goes for good.
Last edited by Martin Blank on Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed unnecessary racial language from Deacon's quoted text. -- MB
"I guess I have a gift for expressing pedestrian tastes. In a way, it's kind of depressing." -Bill Watterson

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 43995
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Deacon » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:26 pm

Was it? Totally unnecessary? That seems like the lightest touch possible that still illustrates how huge a gulf can exist in a "sane society" as you put it, over which you have no control. So unless you're OK with trading essential liberty for a little temporary security, you've got to roll with it.

And no, sorry, you don't get to say that no one is allowed to lampoon the ridiculous arguments suggesting that, say, police are all the protection anyone could ever possibly need, that the confederate flag is appropriate to incorporate into state government, or that if everything seems OK now it is then impossible for any shit to ever hit the fan.

No, the confederate flag should go. Clearly. And no, police can't and don't offer protection from attacks, only investigations after the fact and hopefully arrest the bad guys. And no, just because you're comfortable now doesn't mean you can assume it will always be that way for generations to come.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
NorthernComfort
Crazy Person
Posts: 2745
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 8:13 pm
Real Name: Alex
Gender: Male
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by NorthernComfort » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:46 pm

I was saying your use of language was unnecessary, and to not be sarcastic about the victims of a church massacre.

Yes, Charleston has a police department. No, police departments are not all-powerful. Nobody ever suggested they were. Thanks for being a dick to the dead in order to make a pointless statement that nobody needed to read. Nobody in this thread has advocated gun control. The closest thing was my saying that pastors shouldn't be carrying guns into their churches. Apparently that was enough to set you off and trigger a veritable tantrum of pro-gun masturbatory strawmen.

And you want to drop the N word, because you're just soooo edgy? It's just immature.
And no, sorry, you don't get to say that no one is allowed to lampoon the ridiculous arguments suggesting that, say, police are all the protection anyone could ever possibly need, that the confederate flag is appropriate to incorporate into state government, or that if everything seems OK now it is then impossible for any shit to ever hit the fan.
I have the feeling that you're just talking to yourself.
"I guess I have a gift for expressing pedestrian tastes. In a way, it's kind of depressing." -Bill Watterson

User avatar
Martin Blank
Knower of Things
Knower of Things
Posts: 12509
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 4:11 am
Real Name: Jarrod Frates
Gender: Male
Omnicode: sxy cm163 kg76 eso.#_glasses sp= Ag1974.October anE hdd Zot RlM Kd1y PeC&C FHb IN14 PrPython(3)^(7)&C(2)^(5)&C++(2)^(7)&JavaScript(2)^(5)&Ruby(1)^(5)&PHP(2)^(5) GM-6DN LAEN(9)&ES(2)^(6)&EO(1)^(7) Crc(6).Security MvD BA! PlM
Location: Dallas, TX
Contact:

Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Martin Blank » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:28 pm

I'm siding with NC on the word choice. I understand the point that you're making, Deacon, and I agree to an extent but the word choice itself had no reason other than to be inflammatory, which is why I've edited the post and quote.

But Deacon's right on the sarcasm. NC may feel it's inappropriate right now, but sometimes immediately after is where sarcasm is most effective.

However, even if there's a law change allowing concealed carry in churches, the church, being privately owned, could always add a sign saying that firearms are not permitted in the church. I see such signs on restaurants even in Texas once in a while. (I'm not referring to the ubiquitous signs about unlicensed concealed carry, but places that actually forbid carrying a weapon unless they're law enforcement.)

I've seen some Facebook posts that argue that Jesus told his followers to carry swords (Luke 22:35-38), but the translation history is murky. According to several sites, the Greek word for sword was machaira, but it could also mean a knife or dagger. Since they were about to set out on a journey, it made sense to bring a knife if only to help prepare food along the way. A knife could perhaps have also served for self-defense, but the conversation ended after only two knives/swords were presented for use by a dozen people. It's a point of considerable controversy in religious circles with both sides reading it to support their views on self-defense.
If I show up at your door, chances are you did something to bring me there.

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 43995
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Deacon » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:31 pm

I disagree. Even in the face of a terrible attack like this, it's apparently easy to forget that not only casual racism exists but full-on kill 'em all racism exists. And that you can't control it, no matter what your version of a "sane society" might be. I didn't "drop the n-word" because I think I'm "so edgy" or whatever, but as a hopefully jarring illustration that there are people out there who still casually use it, and you can't stop them.

Regardless, if a particular church or another holds strong to pacifist dogma, as far as I'm concerned they're 100% within their rights to live that way and even to require others to render themselves defenseless before entering their place of worship. The same goes for private establishments, of course. They have a right to choose to be defenseless just as much as I have a right to choose to work or shop/eat elsewhere. Whether they're making the decision based on some sort of misguided principle or a cynical move to pander to a particular clientele, they can absolutely do that, and more power to them. But to use the force of law to criminalize self defense in violation of the Bill of Rights is crossing the line and should never be tolerated.

And no, it's fundamentally impossible to be a dick to the dead. Especially by pointing out--whether through sarcasm or not--a fundamentally flawed argument in favor of using the force of law to potentially put people in grave danger. They're dead, meaning they have even less awareness than before that I or this forum even exists. And if they were somehow, aware of my writing, then ironically they would probably be even more fervently in agreement, even if they felt differently in life.

Police, even the whitewashed Andy Griffith types, do not even claim to offer any protection of persons against crimes perpetrated by criminals or governments, foreign or domestic, counter to the primary argument made by those who would seek to use the force of law to decide what other people do or don't need to defend themselves. President Obama wasted no time in following his former Chief of Staff's (now mayor of Chicago) advice to never let a good crisis go to waste in using the event as an opportunity to give an exasperated speech on gun control. No, other than suggesting it should be illegal for pastors to arm themselves in defense of their congregation, you didn't go even further to use these people's deaths as a platform to argue for the disarmament of the people, but it turns out not everything is all about you.

PS Phallic imagery? Cold dead hands? Classy. Maybe a little less projection and a little more principle next time.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
NorthernComfort
Crazy Person
Posts: 2745
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 8:13 pm
Real Name: Alex
Gender: Male
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by NorthernComfort » Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:30 am

Once again, Deacon: nobody mentioned police before you did. You brought it up as a straw man and have been arguing with yourself about it for several posts.

Let's see. Your other point is that you think it's okay for you to talk about "killing n---s", even rhetorically. No, that's wrong. Inappropriate, immature, unnecessary.

Next up... apparently my belief that a pastor shouldn't be carrying a gun in his own church implies that I don't understand racial killing exists, and that I am a naif who lives in a utopian dream world. While I'm certain that is how you honestly imagine me, you're wildly incorrect.

And if the other point you wish to make is that you categorically can't be a dick to the dead, because they're dead. *golfclap*

p.s. I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on to sass me with "Classy" when you're literally dropping N bombs and intentionally being sarcastic about the victims of a church massacre.
"I guess I have a gift for expressing pedestrian tastes. In a way, it's kind of depressing." -Bill Watterson

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 43995
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Deacon » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:50 am

Meh. I disagree on essentially all points. When "progressives" are on the topic of gun control, it's extremely common to say just call the police, they're all the protection you need from criminals and tyrants. When they're on the topic of the police themselves, it turns out the police are criminals and tyrants. But regardless, just because no one else brought that up doesn't mean I'm not free to do so. I'm not certain why you would even think that way.

Additionally, you're free to adhere to whatever restrictions of behavior makes you feel good, but trying to make hay on my use of the n-word in this context doesn't really make me believe you're sincere, rather than using Fox/MSNBC talking-heads-style ad hominem tactics. I don't (and have never) use the word in a racist or even just derisive manner in my personal life, nor have I here even suggested that killing anyone is actually OK, as you so ridiculously claim.

I didn't say you were naive for supporting the criminalization of pastors arming themselves in defense of their congregation. I can't imagine why you would support such a thing, and I disagree vehemently, but yes you've certainly brought up that aspect of gun control.

I've never strived in that losing battle to be held up as "classy" or popular by polarized people who dislike me anyway, but by the way you use it to attack my character and message rather than the content, I presume it's not only important to you, but important enough that you wouldn't excuse your own lack of what you would consider class based on someone else's perceived lack.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
NorthernComfort
Crazy Person
Posts: 2745
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 8:13 pm
Real Name: Alex
Gender: Male
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by NorthernComfort » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:06 am

When "progressives" are on the topic of gun control, it's extremely common to say just call the police, they're all the protection you need from criminals and tyrants.
I've never heard this sort of stupidity, and I don't think anybody actually thinks it. And I know a lot of true-blue progressives, the kind that favor Australian-style gun control. Nobody is as stupid as the strawmen you dream up, nobody makes that argument. That's why I found it so tiresome to hear you harp on about it.
but trying to make hay on my use of the n-word in this context doesn't really make me believe you're sincere,
I'm sincerely telling you that you were totally out of line. I wish you'd quit trying to defend it.
"I guess I have a gift for expressing pedestrian tastes. In a way, it's kind of depressing." -Bill Watterson

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 43995
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Deacon » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:16 am

Well of course. Your opinion is the final word and truth, after all.

And if you've legitimately never heard the anti-gun crowd saying you don't need a gun, just call the police if someone's breaking in, etc, then you apparently haven't had much discussion on the topic. It's the default rebuttal to the argument that firearms are needed for the defense of the home against criminals.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
NorthernComfort
Crazy Person
Posts: 2745
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 8:13 pm
Real Name: Alex
Gender: Male
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by NorthernComfort » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:50 am

And if you've legitimately never heard the anti-gun crowd saying you don't need a gun, just call the police if someone's breaking in, etc, then you apparently haven't had much discussion on the topic. It's the default rebuttal to the argument that firearms are needed for the defense of the home against criminals.
Cite it. I'm tired of your conjecture.

This thread is about the shootings in Charleston, not your irrelevant strawman about hypothetical retarded "progressives" that don't exist.

Cite it, or at least get back on topic.
"I guess I have a gift for expressing pedestrian tastes. In a way, it's kind of depressing." -Bill Watterson

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 43995
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Deacon » Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:45 am

Cite what? You've made a turn to troll for some reason, demanding I provide proof of any voter fraud ever in another thread and demanding I go out and do the research to cite a source for a generic and commonly made assertion here. It's unnecessary.

Some people were attacked and killed in South Carolina. It's an frustrating tragedy, fueled by some combination of pathology and racism. But the weapon used, which happens to have been a handgun, was apparently obtained legally. And even with some of the extreme violations of the Bill of Rights pushed by Obama and the rest of the anti-gun crowd such as criminalizing otherwise fully legal and normal private gifts/sales (in this case father to son) would not have stopped it.

We'll see if Obama is able to keep up his rhetoric about "most of" and in some cases even "over 90% of" gun owners support these kinds of "common sense" rights violations. While this has provided him with a new opportunity to fan the flames of those who believe giving up freedom they don't bother using anyway for some willing delusion of security. I wonder how many of those people realize that believing they are immune to criminals and tyrants forever and thus not caring about the Second Amendment is like them saying they don't care about the Fourth Amendment because they have nothing to hide or the First because they have nothing to say.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
NorthernComfort
Crazy Person
Posts: 2745
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 8:13 pm
Real Name: Alex
Gender: Male
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by NorthernComfort » Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:51 am

I'm genuinely curious if you could cite a single person who claims "you don't need a gun, just call the police if someone's breaking in, etc". But whatever- I don't actually care, I just get annoyed by constant strawman arguments.

I'm sure Obama will keep up his rhetoric- he's a lame duck, might as well keep hitting the talking points. But there is pretty much zero chance of any gun legislation getting through Congress, so I wouldn't sweat it if I were you. While 90% of the country might say "yes" to universal background checks when you call them up on the phone, I still think it's a long shot as far as legislation goes.

I see very little momentum behind the gun control advocates in relation to this shooting, though. Sure, we have the obligatory piece in the New Yorker. They always write the same damn thing. But what's impressive to me is how fast everybody has bolted from the Confederate flag - a symbol that I must admit was a tangential piece of my youth - and also how the "Council of Conservative Citizens" (the hate group that inspired the shooter) has been linked to GOP politicians.
"I guess I have a gift for expressing pedestrian tastes. In a way, it's kind of depressing." -Bill Watterson

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 43995
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Deacon » Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:57 am

I agree, but I think that line is only held with continual vigilance. Otherwise eventually something will pass, and someone's life will have to be ruined while they serve as the object lesson through the appeals eventually up to SCOTUS. And of course whether SCOTUS upholds the Constitution is anyone's guess. They're always surprising people with the ridiculous opinions they issue. Hell, Sotomayor opined recently that the USDA regularly taking raisins by force from raisin producers doesn't constitute a taking of goods, per se. So...yeah, I take nothing for granted. I mean, how long did it take for the broad spying ridiculousness in the PATRIOT Act to be lightly reprimanded? Or the wholesale rejection of the Second Amendment in DC and Chicago to be finally overridden? And now corporations are people and government bureaucrats stealing real estate by force to give to private developer buddies is totally cool, too. Yeah, take nothing for granted.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests