Charleson, SC shooting

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JermCool
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Charleson, SC shooting

Post by JermCool » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:47 pm

Everything about this makes me mad.

If the guy was a racist, it makes me mad. If the guy was out to kill Christians, it makes me mad. The immediate jump by Salon that this guy was a right-wing loon makes me mad (and historically, these lunatics vote on the left, but that's always conveniently left out). And then President Obama comes out with this gem:
But let’s be clear: At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries. It doesn’t happen in other places with this kind of frequency. And it is in our power to do something about it.
The Charlie Hebdo attacks JUST HAPPENED IN JANUARY! France isn't an advanced country? How about Edmonton, Canada back in December where a nutjob killed 8 people. Canada isn't advanced? The slaughter in Norway in 2011. Etc. Etc. Etc.

And who needs guns? 29 people dead and 143 wounded in Kunming, China when nutters with knives decided to go on a killing spree last year.

Putting on blinders and say "Only in America" is a freaking LIE. Evil people will kill so long as they have the means to do so, everywhere.
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Deacon » Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:49 am

You happen to know if SC is one of the states that criminalize self defense in churches?
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Rorschach » Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:32 am

Wasn't the point Obama was making that these kinds of things don't happen as frequently?

Although in saying that, I do want a gun.
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by NorthernComfort » Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:24 pm

I lived many years in Charleston, literally went to K-8 across the street from the church. Lived a few blocks away. Very sad, very close to home.

Take your hand-wringing about guns and self defense in churches and shove it. Take your oh-so angry anger about a few words out of Obama's mouth and shove it. What a pitiful start to this thread.
If the guy was a racist, it makes me mad.
Do you not pay attention on purpose or something? What sort of hammer do you need to be hit in the head with in order to see the blindingly obvious?
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by NorthernComfort » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:31 pm

What I mean to say: this was clearly a racially motivated attack. Let's not pretend it was anything else, even rhetorically.

No other advanced nation has mass shootings at anywhere near the frequency as we enjoy here in America. None. Obama did not say that no other nation has incidents of mass murder.

And if this shooter voted I'm going to take a wild guess and say that it wouldn't have been for Obama. Southern racists don't lean left. Remember that whole Southern strategy? And I find it really rich that JermCool is pointing out how other villains in history were left-wing nuts. Defensive much? For good reason.
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Deacon » Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:30 pm

To clarify...

Left = Good
Right = Evil
Libertarian = Silly
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by NorthernComfort » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:14 pm

Nah, more like:

Left = Bumbling Bureaucratic Bisexual Buffoons
Right = Reprobate Rich Racist Rapists
Libertarians = Neeeeerds!!!

Actually, let's not oversimplify, tis a silly task. I lean to the right myself, but I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade and mention the success of the Southern strategy and how it still drives a lot of GOP policy.

And all I said was that Southern racists tend to vote GOP instead of Democrat, which is the damn truth. If you want to reduce that to some good vs. evil bullshit, knock yourself out.

And the only reason that political leanings got introduced at ALL in this thread was.... oh right, the very first post:
The immediate jump by Salon that this guy was a right-wing loon makes me mad (and historically, these lunatics vote on the left, but that's always conveniently left out).
Bullshit like that makes me mad. Aw, you're upset that a right wing loon is actually a right wing loon? Too bad, so sad! Life is so cruel.
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by JermCool » Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:21 pm

It makes me mad that no one bothers to do due diligence. We don't know where this idiot leans politically. We just know he's evil.

But thanks for your useful insight as always.
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by NorthernComfort » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:08 pm

We know that he's a racist murderous shit and likes the flags of white supremacist regimes. I doubt he has any political mindset that we'd consider sane.

But I know how most Southern racist shitheads vote: for the asshole politicians who like to talk about taking our country back from our black President. Connect the dots.

There are plenty of left wing nut jobs who have committed heinous acts. There are plenty of right wingers, too. Fucked up shit comes in all flavors.
But thanks for your useful insight as always.
Anytime! Thanks for showing me how thin-skinned right-wingers are! And admitting that you read Salon, which made me laugh.

P.S. All Republicans are racist!

P.P.S. :lol:
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Deacon » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:03 am

NorthernComfort wrote:But I know how most Southern racist shitheads vote: for the asshole politicians who like to talk about taking our country back from our black President. Connect the dots.
It's a shame, because if his other half were white, too, they'd throw themselves at his feet, I'm sure.

Yes, this dude is without a doubt a disturbed individual and an extreme racist. Beyond that, does it really matter, unless there's a direct causal relationship that we should be on the lookout for?
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Martin Blank » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:18 am

One of the most jarring things about this incident is that the shooter "almost didn't go through with it because everyone was so nice to him." He sat there for an hour before beginning his rampage as blacks treated him nicely and almost talked him out of it completely unwittingly.

I really do wonder how many times someone has taken a gun into some area intending to shoot as many people as he can and found that he couldn't because the people were too nice to him.

We'll never know.
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by NorthernComfort » Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:40 pm

He wrote a manifesto of sorts - google cache - it's pretty much run of the mill racism. He's not the brightest bulb as far as writing goes. He closes it out with a quote from American History X, which struck me as very bizarre-- talk about missing the point of the movie.

The detail about how everybody was so nice broke my heart. Growing up in Charleston, some of the students in my class had parents who were active at that church. They were, undoubtedly, some of the nicest people I have ever met in my life.
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by The Cid » Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:19 pm

All I want to say on this is it makes me sad how people see a horrible tragedy that absolutely no sane human being can condone in any real significant way, and they decide to take it as a chance to harden their own political philosophies and suggest that the evil and awful Other People Who Vote Differently Than They Do are about to do something even worse.

This is my biggest problem with the NRA. There is something of value to defend. But every time a mass shooting happens, their response is basically to sell guns to crazy assholes who think They Are Coming For Our Guns Again (even though they never have).

Hey, guess what's never going to solve anything?
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Deacon » Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:28 pm

Sorry, but what are you talking about? The anti-gun folks took the opportunity to squawk their alarm. The NRA doesn't really have much responsibility on their shoulders to react every time someone shoots someone else. But they've definitely implemented harsh gun control laws before, and it's only now that they've finally been loosening. When they have decided freedom is too dangerous, they've at least grandfathered existing items. That's what drives people to acquire additional arms when Obama or Hillary or whoever start going on about "common-sense" rights violations.

I think the problem with this whole constitutional debate is that in an age of 24/7 sensationalist news channels and a 24/7 scramble to capture clickbait social media retweets and likes and such, we're all instantly aware of every tragedy and still few of the good stories. And in response, whether legitimately or to sound cool, people instantly take a selfie of them donning sackcloth and ashes. So it's a lot easier to ignore that violent crime has been falling consistently since loosening restrictions on the Second Amendment, that these widely publicized instances happen always (or nearly) in areas where self-defense is criminalized, and the numerous stories of people defending themselves and their families successfully when otherwise they would simply be another victim statistic. When guns, their abundance, or their concentrations are claimed to be the cause of problems, it's super simple to refute.
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Re: Charleson, SC shooting

Post by Martin Blank » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:14 pm

Deacon wrote:Sorry, but what are you talking about? The anti-gun folks took the opportunity to squawk their alarm. The NRA doesn't really have much responsibility on their shoulders to react every time someone shoots someone else. But they've definitely implemented harsh gun control laws before, and it's only now that they've finally been loosening. When they have decided freedom is too dangerous, they've at least grandfathered existing items. That's what drives people to acquire additional arms when Obama or Hillary or whoever start going on about "common-sense" rights violations.
There's a lot of unnecessary rhetoric on both sides, and all it does is get a few riled up and turn away those who want to have an intelligent discussion. The NRA's tactic, and what I think The Cid was trying to get at, was to essentially blame the victims for not allowing guns into the church. It doesn't seem to have crossed their minds that several people would likely have died anyway even if there had been a concealed carry.

I'm a supporter of the Second Amendment, and a strong supporter of concealed carry, but it's not a panacea. The NRA's tendency to metaphorically come out shooting is the main reason why I'm not a member.
So it's a lot easier to ignore that violent crime has been falling consistently since loosening restrictions on the Second Amendment, that these widely publicized instances happen always (or nearly) in areas where self-defense is criminalized, and the numerous stories of people defending themselves and their families successfully when otherwise they would simply be another victim statistic. When guns, their abundance, or their concentrations are claimed to be the cause of problems, it's super simple to refute.
Restrictions tightened throughout the 1980s and 1990s and didn't start to seriously loosen until halfway through the Bush Administration. However, murders peaked in 1993, and the rate has largely been dropping since then. There's an interesting correlation to the phasing in and out of lead in gasoline, and it's been found in numerous countries and even individual states in the US. Roughly 20 years after leaded gasoline was introduced in each, crime rates began to rise, and roughly 20 years after phase-outs began, crime began to fall. There are, of course, many factors to crime that include socioeconomic status and family life, but there's a compelling case that lead is a very strong factor. Youth violence has been declining faster and crime among older people (especially older males) has either been declining more slowly or has actually increased, which could be caused by healthier brains in younger generations and older generations accumulating lead-based neural damage.

There's a lot more study that can be done. Lead often still exists in the soil near major highways, places that the poor (and thus more likely to turn to crime) are more likely to live because the cost of living is lower. Analyzing lead content and comparing it to crime rates could turn up some interesting things. Analyzing the prison population's lead levels could be similarly interesting. I fear that these would be difficult studies to perform technically, but also because there would be a partisan backlash from those fearing that it wouldn't match their worldview.

Incidentally, I don't feel that validating such hypotheses is a reason on its own to cut anyone loose or to restrict access to firearms. People made their decisions at the time of their offense, and a declining murder rate in spite of growing firearm sales (though declining overall ownership rates) does not mean that a guaranteed right should be curtailed. But it could result in actions that could have positive results for future generations as the lead is cleaned out, with lower crime and economic costs.
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