The second amendment

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Rorschach
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Re: The second amendment

Post by Rorschach » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:54 pm

Ignorance absolves me from responsibility.

Hey, I might actually sig that.
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The second amendment

Post by Deacon » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:10 am

Speaking of which, would it surprise you that there were more than 5 times as many murders with knives in 2011 than rifles of any sort, much less the big scary "assault rifles"? It shouldn't, as I previously mentioned that nearly twice as many people were killed with the common hammer than any rifle.

Once Feinstein bans knives and hammers, then we'll talk about her ridiculous bill.
Rorschach wrote:I'm only going to address the second part of your post if that's okay.
Actually that is the second time in that one day that you've abbreviated a response (granted to a rather extensive novella of a post). Out of curiosity, why is that? You just flatly disagree and don't feel it's even worth going into why? Still digesting things? I'd be interested in what you thought about some of these concepts being laid out. Would you--could you--ever find yourself in a position where you would ever take up arms in defense of your family or even against a dictator should the future turn unexpectedly sour? If not, is it due to an honest inventory of your soul resulting in a to-the-death commitment to nothing more than passive resistance, or something else?

I'm honestly curious.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Deacon
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Re: The second amendment

Post by Deacon » Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:33 pm

Wait...what the hell?? It turns out there was never even an AR-15 involved! The whole incident was carried out with only handguns! They later found an AR-15 in the dude's car... How horribly misreported has this whole thing been? All this ignorant and irrational hysteria being stoked and twisted to support a particular political faction's dogma and agenda, and it's not just misleading but an outright lie. Sickening.

PS The police didn't show up till over 10 minutes after the lunatic began opening fire. In this kind of situation, calling 9-1-1 is what you do to report a dead madman. Or you end up with a couple dozen innocent people killed while you wait for them to arrive and rescue you.

Click to embiggen:
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The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Rorschach
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Re: The second amendment

Post by Rorschach » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:17 pm

Deacon wrote:Actually that is the second time in that one day that you've abbreviated a response (granted to a rather extensive novella of a post). Out of curiosity, why is that? You just flatly disagree and don't feel it's even worth going into?
No, not at all. I just didn't disagree with the first part, which was about the Second Amendment in general. My stance on it has mellowed in the years I've been here, due solely to the opinions I've read.
Would you--could you--ever find yourself in a position where you would ever take up arms in defense of your family or even against a dictator should the future turn unexpectedly sour?
Absolutely. This is why I can't really disagree with the Second Amendment in general. I have a baseball bat under my bed. It's a low-tech like-for-like defence against any intruder who's unlikely to be carrying anything more lethal. How can I criticise Americans for doing the same thing? My liberal lefty days are long behind me. If my family are threatened then I don't doubt I am going to hurt as badly as I am able the person I perceive to be threatening them. I can't say more than that until I'm in that position.

I don't often post in SPPACE but I hope I've remained fairly consistent inasmuch as I was concerned about mass killings and the ramifications of legal large-capacity weapons rather than objecting to guns in general. It's been an interesting read.
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Deacon
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Re: The second amendment

Post by Deacon » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:50 pm

I don't think anyone could complain about your participation. I honestly hadn't intended to write the novellas I did, but it really did help me to figure out my thoughts and sort them out on paper, so to speak. If anything, the more I discuss and write about the topic, the deeper I believe in what was ostensibly my original position. It feels more solid now than it may have before.

It's just difficult for me to relate to those who disagree, especially those legislators who call for seizing all firearms, to see things from their point of view. I think it's partly how my personality seems to work in general, where I kind of unconsciously see the whole picture and immediately find the "correct" answer, unless there's a pretty big blind spot somewhere. Because I skipped all the step-by-step analysis part, it's hard for me to backtrack along their thought process to figure out where our views on the matter diverged. Often that's because there has never really been any actual thought process on their part, but occasionally it's a matter of branching off at some crossroads. As long as the branching happens on the basis of some piece of information, we can at least ascertain whether that divergence was based on good and complete information. If it's based on a fundamental philosophical difference, such as with the Brady Campaign, I don't know how to handle that.

For reference, the following ad was posted by the Brady Campaign on their Facebook page, but it was pulled off again a little later after a storm of outrage, after which they disavowed all knowledge of it, claiming that people's photographs of their computer monitor were "photoshopped." This is an example of a philosophical difference I don't think I could intelligently discuss.

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The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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The second amendment

Post by Deacon » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:26 am

From Russia with love

Support for our Bill of Rights from what I would've thought to be an unlikely source took me by surprise and made me even more proud to be an American, a sentiment our current First Lady wouldn't even lie to claim. I hope to have reason to keep that small candle of pride aflame for the remainder of my natural life. I really, really hope no armed men come to my door to extinguish it. I'd rather not ever be forced to make that decision, to see how far I'm willing to go to keep it from being snuffed out.

I'm grateful to be fortunate enough to be born under a Constitution that guarantees me the right to make that decision, regardless of the outcome, so as to ensure that I can continue to be free to share these comments, as brilliant or as stupid as they may be. I wasn't born in Syria, in Libya, in China, in the Sudan, in Germany, in the Soviet Union, in pretty much the whole of Western Europe. I was born in Texas, in the United States of America, and as ridiculous and corny and unenlightened as it may make me in the eyes of many, I am proud of that and take it seriously.

I hope those of you who are similarly fortunate can take a moment to realize the enormity of what that really means and consider whether you would ever be willing to make a stand to defend it against enemies--including those domestic--who may one day decide to break it down and subject it to their own vision instead; whether you are a willing participant may be an irrelevant detail.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: The second amendment

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:23 pm

I was going to post a lot of words here, but nearly none of them are tied to the second amendment, so I'll just post this instead:
[youtube]Bwm4icHffvE[/youtube]
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Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

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Deacon
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The second amendment

Post by Deacon » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:55 pm

Not available on mobile.

EDIT: Listened to it. I'm not sure what to do with it. What were you intending to communicate by posting it?
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Deacon
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Re: The second amendment

Post by Deacon » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:06 pm

So it looks like the Wyoming state legislature is leading the way in actively protecting Wyoming residents' Second Amendment rights from possible overt attacks from Washington DC (see full bill text). It renders any such infringement unenforceable and makes it a felony for anyone (including federal law enforcement) to attempt to enforce it. I, for one, wholeheartedly approve, though I suspect no one here would be surprised by that. I would fully support any such proposal here in Texas as well.

Veering from discussions about guarding against tyranny, it doesn't hurt to remind ourselves of the practical day-to-day. Lest we forget: the the best defense against armed attackers is a gun, not a phone. Aside from the broader philosophical implications of the "lay back and take it" approach currently favored by Obama and most of the rest of Washington and the media, it's gambling that the attacker will be satisfied to take whatever you have to offer that he wants and will leave you penniless and bruised, but alive to be a victim again tomorrow. It's certainly not a sure thing. Definitely dial 9-1-1, but do so to report the (attempted) crime and possibly to request an ambulance for the attacker, not just so they know to send a CSI photographer to document your remains.

Here are a couple of quick current examples from the great state of Wyoming:
http://k2radio.com/customer-turns-the-t ... on-robber/
http://k2radio.com/gun-carrying-employe ... l-robbery/
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: The second amendment

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:56 pm

Deacon wrote:What were you intending to communicate by posting it?
Nothing in particular. I wanted to respond to your post, noticed my response didn't have to do with the topic of the thread, posted a kind of appropriate song instead.

While we're here though, I for one do not feel defenseless without a gun. There's a chance I'm wrong about that, but not really that big of a chance. I also do not feel, at all, that choosing not to own a gun makes me in any way less patriotic. Maybe I'll have a need for one someday. For now I'm probably just fine taking my chances with the set of golf clubs next to my bed.
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Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

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The second amendment

Post by Deacon » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:07 pm

The Cid wrote:While we're here though, I for one do not feel defenseless without a gun. There's a chance I'm wrong about that, but not really that big of a chance.
I'm curious about what you mean by that. Defense against whom? Against an attacker, a gun is certainly not the only means of defense, but it certainly seems like most effective. I have both a sharp garden implement and a 12-ga. Mossberg 590 (and a Remington express) loaded and chambered with 00 buckshot in my bedroom; I can guarantee you I'm reaching for the shotguns first when someone busts through my door like they did this April. For all our sakes my sincere hope is that its mere presence is enough to send them running.

"If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective" -- Ted Nugent
I also do not feel, at all, that choosing not to own a gun makes me in any way less patriotic.
That was not a point I was intending to make. In spirit I approve of the Kennesaw, GA, law requiring all homes be armed, even though it's not actually enforced. In practice, however, I would not support such a law. I do not believe it's the government's role nor within its authority to mandate ownership anymore than banning it or making it unduly difficult.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: The second amendment

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:39 pm

Deacon wrote:I'm curios about what you mean by that. Defense against whom?
...
...Got me. Sharks? It's not so much your posts (though this is in there), but I get the idea from a lot of the very pro-gun crowd that those of us without firearms are walking targets for all manner of horrible crime.
Deacon wrote:Against an attacker, a gun is certainly not the only means of defense, but it certainly seems like most effective.
I'm not that overly concerned with defense against hypothetical attackers. That doesn't seem like it would come up too often that it requires my worry.
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Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

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Deacon
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Re: The second amendment

Post by Deacon » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:17 pm

The Cid wrote:
Deacon wrote:I'm curios about what you mean by that. Defense against whom?
...
...Got me. Sharks?
I really meant whether we're talking about against intruders in uniform.
I'm not that overly concerned with defense against hypothetical attackers. That doesn't seem like it would come up too often that it requires my worry.
Statistically, that's likely true. Really, though, it only has to happen once, and we're not talking some sort of fantastical hypothetical/theoretical scenario. It happens all the time across the country. It happens far more often and kills far more people than any school shootings, with an AR or otherwise. Sometimes they're armed with blunt objects, sometimes knives, sometimes guns. Sometimes they're rational thieves, calculating that they'd rather steal what you've worked for than work for it themselves. Sometimes they're lunatics. Sometimes they're just high on something. Hell, they may be thinking you're not even home, so you surprising them results in either them running away or flipping out and making a mockery of your golf clubs. Who knows? Until it happens, it's all conjecture against which all we can do is prepare.

Regardless, the point isn't that you're a walking target for all manner of horrible crime. The point is that you're welcome to choose whatever means of defense you like as long as you don't restrict all others to that choice. I'm using the editorial "you" there, to be clear. Hell, I call it a victory just to overturn the terrible "run first" laws in favor of the castle doctrine, regardless of what you may be wielding.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: The second amendment

Post by The Cid » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:26 am

Deacon wrote:I really meant whether we're talking about against intruders in uniform.
I write. I don't write anything of any importance at all, just sports stuff and forum posts, but I write a lot. Sometimes even for money. I like to think that in the extremely unlikely scenario that the US government turns into an oppressive regime, I would stand up in that way. I like to think I'd handle an oppressive government like this guy. (If I've posted that before, I'm sorry. I just love that letter.)
Deacon wrote:Until it happens, it's all conjecture against which all we can do is prepare.
I'm on the "my neighbors have better stuff than I have" security system. It's not foolproof, but it works for me. :lol:
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Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

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Deacon
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The second amendment

Post by Deacon » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:50 am

But do they write inspirational gems that need to be silenced? :)
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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