The second amendment

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Deacon
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Re: The second amendment

Post by Deacon » Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:16 pm

Maybe she wouldn't. But would she nominate justices hostile to the Second Amendment? I think so, yes. Would the person who ends up in the presidency after her be more of a "principled" person and therefore say damn the torpedoes, I don't care if it's political suicide, I'm going to go down in history as a hero? Well...sure, maybe. A dedicated and principled statist like Bernie 2.0 could certainly come along and get the socialist revolution he wanted, depending on how things go over the next 8 years or so (or 12 or 16 or 32, etc). Dubya enacted a lot of highly questionable stuff (mostly with the support of the Congress who passed the PATRIOT Act nearly unanimously and has kept renewing it), which I think will eventually haunt him in his historical legacy. Obama failed to fulfill his campaign promises to undo some of those changes, forbid torture, shut down Gitmo, etc, which if our historians end up at all honest will be significant dings against him as well, though I'm 100% sure he has his reasons.

What would Hillary do? Not sure, but she's not going to stand up for reasonable protections of the Second Amendment if she doesn't have to. She's going to be obsessed with her legacy and history from day 1, and she's going to be pretty well focused on "being on the right side of history" whatever she thinks that'll mean at the time.

What would Trump do? Not a single fucking clue.
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Re: The second amendment

Post by NorthernComfort » Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:54 pm

I just think the commonly espoused fears are very far-fetched. Hillary & Obama both have the same ultimate priority which is keeping a Democrat in the White House. Being on the right side of history and worries about their legacy are secondary to the primary goal of maintaining Democratic power. Any significant attack on 2nd amendment rights would most definitely risk their party maintaining political power, and is therefore completely off-limits.

Obama wanted to close Gitmo, and has always seen that as an important part of his legacy. Closing it is certainly the right thing to do. But in order to keep Democratic party in office, he needs to maintain a strong alliance between the executive branch and the military. Thus closing Gitmo has been totally off-limits and Obama just eats the shit sandwich for the good of the party. Same thing goes for gun control. Obama would obviously act if it were up to him. But then they'd lose the executive branch. So it's not worth it to the party. Strictly politics.

And that's why when people seriously fret about losing 2nd amendment rights, I just kind of roll my eyes. It's not going to happen in our lifetime.
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Re: The second amendment

Post by Deacon » Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:19 pm

I guess we'll see. Obama has been evangelizing heavily for revoking gun rights. I'm sure he'd be satisfied to know he set 'em up as long as some coming behind him can knock 'em down. I hope you're right, that attacks on the second amendment would be more surreptitious, through Supreme Court appointees and more aggressive BATFE actions rather than more overtly, though I don't see her vetoing attacks like legislation banning semi automatic rifles and standar magazines so forth. And please, please no more attempts to subvert rights through operations like "fast and furious."
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: The second amendment

Post by The Cid » Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:48 pm

NorthernComfort wrote:I just think the commonly espoused fears are very far-fetched.
I don't even give them that much credit. They're an imaginary menace. Nobody is coming to take everybody's guns. Nobody is going to wave a pen around and make all guns illegal.

It sucks because the people who talk about "gun nuts" on the left and people who talk about some Obama Clinton plot to take all the guns on the right are both living in a bubble where they just stereotype large swaths of America.

You want to know why that's a bad thing? Because it is exactly, EXACTLY what Donald Trump has been preying on this whole time. It is what is bringing him this far. Directly. And not just one group is responsible.

We favor shouting matches and simple stereotypes to the nuanced discussions that we actually need to have. That's how we've wound up with the 2016 Presidential Election.
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Re: The second amendment

Post by Deacon » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:42 pm

Yeah, people like to tell me that they're not actually working to ban firearms, that they're just looking for common sense legislation so that our children are safe.

http://libertyviral.com/hillary-delegat ... n-control/
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Re: The second amendment

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:16 am

I'm sure Hillary will put this young woman in charge of drafting the executive order to confiscate all firearms.
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Re: The second amendment

Post by The Cid » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:45 am

Deacon wrote:Yeah, people like to tell me that they're not actually working to ban firearms
If they're "actually working to ban firearms," then every time I play golf I'm working on finally winning the US Open.
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Re: The second amendment

Post by Deacon » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:54 am

The suggestion is that nobody is trying to take existing guns or cut your future rights off at the knees, and it's not true. It's the same reason keeping a national database from required registration causes such instant revulsion. The reality is that there are many who are working tirelessly to push as far as they can to take your guns and make you register so that law-abiding citizens line up nice and orderly to be knocked down like Australian dominoes if the winds shift just a little in their favor. People like to shit on the NRA, but they're one of the only visible groups facing into a continual storm of attacks on the second amendment among those who don't respect it but realize they don't yet have the political support to repeal it.

By the way, "This is not the first time that Ginsburg has shared her desire to overturn Heller."

Link to original NY Times inside: http://www.ammoland.com/2016/07/justice ... urn-heller
NorthernComfort wrote:I'm sure Hillary will put this young woman in charge of drafting the executive order to confiscate all firearms.
I wouldn't imagine so. But nothing helps stoke fear of surrendering rights down a slippery slope than confirmation of tactics to lube up that slope as much as possible.
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Re: The second amendment

Post by NorthernComfort » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:04 am

Like The Cid says, their chance of success is pretty much nil. I'm absolutely terrible at golf myself. Politicians don't commit career suicide. I mean, think of how this would play out. Hillary makes the announcement that certain types of guns are now illegal, and must be turned in. Thousands of people see this as unacceptable tyranny and will defend their right. Somehow I don't think her approval rates would be very high after months of US citizens and law enforcement killing each other every day.

It's not fucking happening.
Last edited by NorthernComfort on Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The second amendment

Post by The Cid » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:05 am

Deacon wrote: People like to shit on the NRA, but they're one of the only visible groups facing into a continual storm of attacks on the second amendment among those who don't respect it but realize they don't yet have the political support to repeal it.
The NRA just gave three million dollars in ad money to a man who just stopped barely short of putting a hit out on his opponent. This is not an organization that deals in reality.
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Re: The second amendment

Post by Deacon » Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:05 am

Oh please. Trump is a tool. But really, there was a lot more real speculation about someone trying to take Obama out than Hillary.
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Re: The second amendment

Post by Rorschach » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:45 am

Deacon wrote:Oh please. Trump is a tool. But really, there was a lot more real speculation about someone trying to take Obama out than Hillary.
You need to be careful with how you spin loonballs.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -yorkshire

I don't know if the story made it over there, but in brief this was a British MP murdered in the street by someone with militantly nationalistic leanings and mental health problems empowered, seemingly, by the unpleasantly xenophobic voices screaming loudly through the UK at the moment.
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Re: The second amendment

Post by The Cid » Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:54 am

Deacon wrote:Oh please. Trump is a tool. But really, there was a lot more real speculation about someone trying to take Obama out than Hillary.
There's no "oh please" about it. He suggested that someone could protect their second amendment rights if they shoot Hillary Clinton. And everyone who stands by him now deserves to be held accountable for standing behind that dangerous asshole for the rest of their hopefully shortened careers. There is no excuse for this.

I just heard one of Trump's politician supporters from Wisconsin talking about "that's not how midwesterners heard what he said." Well that's great, Trump's from New York, so you just aren't hearing it right.

If he were calling on people to vote he wouldn't have directed it at "second amendment people."
Rorschach wrote:I don't know if the story made it over there, but in brief this was a British MP murdered in the street by someone with militantly nationalistic leanings and mental health problems empowered, seemingly, by the unpleasantly xenophobic voices screaming loudly through the UK at the moment.
Oh, and by the way, Boris Johnson didn't directly imply that someone should do that. So someone took rhetoric that isn't NEARLY as extreme as Trump and used it to murder somebody.

I honestly think Trump should be pulled off a plane and arrested for that. That's a step too far.

Or, to put it in the indelicate terms of this horrific election, lock him up.
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Re: The second amendment

Post by Deacon » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:43 pm

Rors, what's really frustrating is that The Guardian said nothing about how that mentally ill man got his hands on a firearm in the gun-free utopia of merry old England. Nor do they mention what kind of firearm it was, or what kind of knife. Nor would it be able to mention all the mass shootings in gun-free Germany. But then, that's only happens in gun-free zones in America, so we can safely ignore them.

The good news is that while America has 7x the population of England, and I'm sure more than our fair share of crazies, trying to get through secret service protection of a presidential candidate wouldn't be quite so easy.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: The second amendment

Post by Rorschach » Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:45 pm

A very quick Google search shows conflicting stories. Some claim it to a reactivated antique - which before reactivation apparently don't fall under UK firearm law - others, a homemade gun constructed through plans obtained from the internet.
I'd be lying if I said I knew which was true although I do murky remember something odd about the gun at the time.

That wasn't really my point though. I'd rather people weren't inspired to have a go in the first place, and I'm sure the secret services guys would agree.
I've just seen a statement from Ronald Reagan''s daughter saying something similar. Although obviously I've got no idea on the background there.
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