Indecision 2012

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Deacon
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Indecision 2012

Post by Deacon » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:28 pm

We in the US of A elect a president this year. Soon. And we're stuck between Tweedle Dangerous and Tweedle Dipshit once again, and once again the sitting president is a master of claiming way more than appropriate credit for anything good and escapes with WAY less blame for everything bad. Does anyone even care anymore?

Jon Rosenberg has a take on it:

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The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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collegestudent22
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Re: Indecision 2012

Post by collegestudent22 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:22 pm

Eh, fuck it. America's fucking done. Like, over. Just a waiting game now.

Even if I were to vote, it would only be a defensive action against the massive immoral State. And since our two choices are Thing 1 and Thing 2, I'm probably going to just stay home. Prepare for the oncoming economic crash.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Indecision 2012

Post by ampersand » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:16 am

I think there's a book on CS22 sentiment: Don't Vote, It Just Encourages the Bastards.

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Re: Indecision 2012

Post by collegestudent22 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:33 am

PJ O'Rourke is a funny guy. And he's right. "There is only one basic human right: the right to do as you damn well please."

But I view it even more significantly than that. The State is violence. Thus, voting is fundamentally a violent act. You can vote to use that violence aggressively, by mandating, banning, and expropriating with the arm of the state ("Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else" - Bastiat), or you can vote to defend yourself from the above trespasses. Either way, you legitimize a fundamentally illegitimate organization - that of the State.

"The state is a gang of thieves writ large." (Murray Rothbard) That should be remembered when going to vote for the next Supreme Overlord of (Most of The) Earth. Or you can be like the millions of people that go to the polls, slaves happy to pick their new master.

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Even better:

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Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: Indecision 2012

Post by The Cid » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:21 pm

I would like the president's campaign manager to apologize to all of America for that attack ad where Romney's singing "America the Beautiful" off-key. You think I want to hear that terrible singing after every half inning of a baseball game? That's an unprovoked attack on the American voter's ears, and somebody should lose their job over that.
Deacon wrote:Does anyone even care anymore?
I care about the local race to see whether Scott Brown or Elizabeth Warren will represent Massachusetts with our one senate seat. (What is supposed to be MA's other senate seat currently belongs to the Democratic National Committee, as that is the only constituency that John Kerry ever cares to serve.)

In fact, I'm going to go out on a very naive and uncharacteristic limb: I kind of like both candidates. I approve of the job Senator Brown has done since taking over Ted Kennedy's vacated seat, and whether his speeches against our political divide are genuine or not at least he's not adding to the Civil Cold War. I don't agree with a lot of what Elizabeth Warren says, but she at least makes sense while explaining herself. That both have agreed not to engage in attack ads--and thus far followed through on that agreement--makes me cautiously optimistic that whoever wins will be marginally better than today's political norm. Yes, this counts as optimism on my part.
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Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

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Re: Indecision 2012

Post by collegestudent22 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:05 pm

The Cid wrote:I don't agree with a lot of what Elizabeth Warren says, but she at least makes sense while explaining herself.
Well, as long as she explains her support for the theft that is taxation. I suppose it really doesn't matter. "For centuries, the State has robbed people at bayonet point, and called it, "taxation." Coercion and violence, by the direct threat of confiscation or imprisonment, this is taxation." It isn't going to change because of Warren, or because she loses.

Not only do I not really care, I find it to be positively humorous. The state can buy support with its stolen money, and it can use police and military force to inculcate fear to maintain power. But that can only last for so long. And it is my firm belief that it is just a matter of time, and a relatively short time at that, before the entire system collapses.

</government>
Last edited by collegestudent22 on Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: Indecision 2012

Post by ampersand » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:15 pm

Just one question, CS22. Where does it say that the State is an illegitimate organization? And why do you say it is illegitimate?

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Re: Indecision 2012

Post by The Cid » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:16 am

collegestudent22 wrote:It isn't going to change because of Warren, or because she loses.
Wow, deuces, calm down. I just was saying that the way both candidates are campaigning for the senate race is, by my lifetime's standards, really pleasant and it's making me think slightly more optimistically about both of them. I don't expect anyone to fix anything, I just want someone who won't embarrass my state by acting like a jackass and both of these people seem more than capable of that. You're mistaking my optimism for other people's optimism.

My optimism:
"Boy that senator from ______ sure stepped in it this time. I'm glad I'm not from his state."
"Wow, hey, I feel like that candidate might actually come back to Massachusetts on occasion if they were elected to the senate. Maybe they'll even pretend to listen to the people."
"What's that? The senator bought a new car? ...But it wasn't because he wrapped his previous one around a tree at one in the morning? He just sold his old one? Okay, cool."
"Hey, that senator seems really sober."

And yet I still feel I'm being naively optimistic in expecting those things of both candidates.
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Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

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Re: Indecision 2012

Post by collegestudent22 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:36 am

ampersand wrote:Just one question, CS22.
That's two questions. :lol:
Where does it say that the State is an illegitimate organization?
It doesn't "say" this anywhere. But it is illegitimate. It claims a sole right on determining the outcome of disputes within its claimed territory - and thus makes "legal" it's own theft, murder, extortion, and violence. And if you have a dispute with the state? You better hope they are feeling generous enough to even let you bring your claim against them, much less rule in your favor.

"The State is the organization of robbery systematized and writ large. The State is the only legal institution in society that acquires its revenue by the use of coercion, by using enough violence and threat of violence on its victims to ensure their paying the desired tribute. The State benefits itself at the expense of its robbed victims. The State is, therefore, a centralized, regularized organization of theft." - Murray Rothbard
And why do you say it is illegitimate?
It obtains its revenue by violence and the threat of violence. It takes the property of people in the name of protecting it. It, in times past, enslaved men into armed battalions to fight over territory and jurisdiction. It enforces its rules, even against peaceful individuals, by violence. The entire system is predicated on violence and coercion, in violation of the individual's rights of self-ownership and private property.

Basically, see here.
I just was saying that the way both candidates are campaigning for the senate race is, by my lifetime's standards, really pleasant-/quote]

I understand. I was just saying that, in my view, the way they are campaigning is mostly irrelevant - like how nice a guy the Mafia boss was to get in charge would be.
"Hey, that senator seems really sober."
You are right - that is incredibly naive optimism. :D
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: Indecision 2012

Post by collegestudent22 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:07 am

Also, this (admittedly long) explanation:

[youtube]b7SA_5WeGZ0[/youtube]
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: Indecision 2012

Post by The Cid » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:02 pm

collegestudent22 wrote:in my view, the way they are campaigning is mostly irrelevant - like how nice a guy the Mafia boss was to get in charge would be.
I disagree. I think it's important to try and restore a sense of decency to our politics. It's a step forward, though it certainly isn't world-stopping progress. Whoever wins the election, Brown or Warren, they aren't going to be the White Knight that fixes everything or anything at all.

But here's what they have done: They have made all discussion of the upcoming senatorial election that much more civil. People who support both candidates are willing to have real conversations about the whole thing. There's not a lot of hard rhetoric, even from voters. This is a positive development. It seems like we would be better off as a country if more elections were conducted in that manner. Even if everybody's still lying through their teeth, at least these two aren't lying in order to get us to loathe the opposition. I'll take that in the absence of a larger victory.
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Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

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Re: Indecision 2012

Post by Deacon » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:47 pm

The Cid wrote:I think it's important to try and restore a sense of decency to our politics.
Restore? As in, it ever existed? When was this exactly?
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: Indecision 2012

Post by The Cid » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:40 pm

Deacon wrote:Restore?
OR, we could just fight forever and ensure that a broken system never gets fixed...
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Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

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Re: Indecision 2012

Post by Arres » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:55 pm

CS22, your bitterness and anger is coming through rather...strongly lately. I'll grant you that the state enforces it's mandate through violence or threat of violence. That is after all the ONLY means of enforcing ANYTHING. What I don't get is why you're under the impression that makes it illegitimate. Are you a true Anarchist? Is there a form of Government that you could point to and say "THERE is a legitimate Government. Well done!" even if it doesn't exist today?
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Re: Indecision 2012

Post by Deacon » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:18 pm

The Cid wrote:OR, we could just fight forever and ensure that a broken system never gets fixed...
I see what you're trying to do there, but you're putting forth a false dichotomy. To me it's dangerous to be lured into the impression that there was once an era of civilized statesmen politely discussing matters of the day until a compromised was reached that left all parties equally satisfied, as that implies that such a thing is not only possible but within easy reach. Or at least much easier than it would be if you recognized that it's never actually existed before. If you have a goal, an ideal you'd like to reach, great, but acknowledge whether it would be A New Thing, and approach it as such so as to be much more effective at accomplishing it. We put a man on the moon 1969 without such a thing ever having been achieved before. But we didn't do it by saying, "We want to return to the moon!"
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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