Busybodies vs. Fun

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ampersand
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Busybodies vs. Fun

Post by ampersand » Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:12 am

...some boy lies dead oozing with strawberry flavored syrup.
Nearby a girl tries to clean up vanilla syrup running down her inner thigh.

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

Post by spikegirl7 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:04 am

So on the Missouri ballot this fall is Prop B, which would raise taxes on tobacco from $0.17 to $0.90 a pack for branded cigarettes, and up to $1.47 for non-branded. The ads for it claim the money is going to education, but there are no locks that would require it to go in that direction.

I'm allergic to cigarette smoke. It burns my eyes and causes my throat to feel tight. And this is a voluntary tax, far preferable to an income tax or property tax. If you don't smoke, you don't pay. On the other hand, I think it's absurd to tax cigs THIS much. If people choose to poison their body that's THEIR issue, and the government has no right to tell them otherwise.

Of course I'm also of the opinion that sales of legal products are the business of those involved only, and not the government. If I want to buy a carton of cigs for $2, and there's a company that can sell them to me for that, that's between me and that company. The government has no business in it.
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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

Post by The Cid » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:24 am

I do smoke, which should tell you a bit about how little common sense I possess.

What makes me mad is that it's such hypocrisy. On one hand, there's always a move to increase public awareness of what everyone else dislikes about smokers, and smokers are banished outside (and in some places, outside is not enough) regardless of the weather. On the other hand, cigarette taxes are effective streams of revenue because smokers are addicted, and thus local and/or state governments are making money for the same reasons that Big Tobacco is making money. So it's either one or the other--either it's wrong to take advantage of the addictive nature of nicotine, or it's an effective revenue stream in a crappy economy. I won't be happy with the latter, but without the former I would at least accept it a bit easier.
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Busybodies vs. Fun

Post by Deacon » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:48 am

The Cid wrote:I do smoke
What? Since when? I didn't think you smoked when I met you a while back...
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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

Post by collegestudent22 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:41 am

spikegirl7 wrote:And this is a voluntary tax, far preferable to an income tax or property tax.
No tax is voluntary. If one were to obtain cigarettes, but not pay the tax, they would go to jail. Yes, if you don't smoke, you don't pay. But this implies that there is no right to smoke if one desires to do so. As a proponent of the view that people own their own bodies - and more, that this must be assumed in justifying any ethical standard, or choosing to act at all (a necessary fact of existence) - this violates that concept.
The government has no business in it.
No one has any business with any voluntary interaction between other individuals.
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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

Post by The Cid » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:02 am

Deacon wrote:I didn't think you smoked when I met you a while back
I stop for periods so I don't start sounding like the lead singer of the Mighty Mighty Bosstones, but yeah. Are you sure I wasn't smoking that night? I might have bummed one or two off of barflies or passerby, but I think I did smoke.
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Busybodies vs. Fun

Post by Deacon » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:59 am

Hmm. Maybe you did. If you can stop drone time to time, do yourself a favor and stop period. I wish I could do so a lot more easily. I'll probably have to break down and ask my doc for one of the quitting prescriptions at some point. I wish I'd never picked it up or at least that I'd stayed quit last time...
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

Post by spikegirl7 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:46 pm

No tax is voluntary. If one were to obtain cigarettes, but not pay the tax, they would go to jail.
See, that's one other thing that bothers me. Currently there's a big trade in buying cigs in low tax states and re-selling them in high-tax states. And the ATF goes after these people with a vengeance. And I have a problem with that. The taxes are paid, the manufacturer is paid, and the store is paid. I don't think they should pursue these people so much. Are there no murders, rapes, and violent crimes so that we can spend so much effort hunting down a market that is CREATED by overly high taxes on this good? The practice of this is a direct result of high taxes on cigs (anywhere from 60-80% or more of the pack price) and it frustrates me.

There's the hypocrisy too of it that bothers me, as Cid said. Government is trying to dissuade adults from smoking (and yes, it is disgusting and absolutely horrible for you), and the high taxes and restrictions on where people can smoke are ways they do that. On the other hand they generate HUGE amounts of their revenue from these same taxes. If they got what they wanted and all the people stopped smoking they would be left with huge spending gaps.
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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

Post by Deacon » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:39 am

Just out of curiosity, didn't you say your ex smoked, and you found it manly and sexy?
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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collegestudent22
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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

Post by collegestudent22 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:43 am

spikegirl7 wrote:Are there no murders, rapes, and violent crimes so that we can spend so much effort hunting down a market that is CREATED by overly high taxes on this good?
I would argue that the government only has an incentive to stop murder, rape, and violent crime insofar as it interferes with their own theft (i.e. "tax") of the populace. It's the same reason the Mafia cracks down on "competition". What are you going to do if they do a bad job? (Or if they do things like this? Seriously. This kind of thing is almost enough for me to go "Boondock Saints" - or "Green Arrow", as the new show goes - on these assholes.) Hire a private company to protect you and rule on disputes and crime?
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

Post by Arres » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:41 pm

spikegirl7 wrote:.... And I have a problem with that. The taxes are paid, the manufacturer is paid, and the store is paid. I don't think they should pursue these people so much....
Just real quick, I'd like to address this. I think chances are good that the taxes are NOT paid, and that is the problem. Someone who buys cigarettes in State A (low tax) and sells them in State B (high tax) is setting themselves up as a vendor. They purchase their cigarettes from a distributor, then sell them (ideally at a profit). Unfortunately, unless they pay the sales tax on their sale in the state of sale they ARE dodging taxes. I'm not sure if the ATF should have jurisdiction over those who are dodging STATE tax (although the fact that it's tobacco is probably what brings them in). It may be an unfair and an innappropriate tax, but taxing vices seems to be a publicly acceptable behavior.

Incidentally CS22, Democracy is the END PRODUCT of your anarchist ideal. We have majority agreed on a single group to defer to, and furthermore agreed that the minority (you) can't fuck up the system by dropping out of it. Since anarchy is at it's very core might makes right, you lose. There's more of us than there are of you. Sorry.
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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

Post by The Cid » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:21 pm

But why abandon what you honestly believe is right just because it's never going to happen? I think we should welcome all viewpoints, even the extreme and those that are wildly impractical most of the time. Maybe there's something to learn there.
Arres wrote:It may be an unfair and an innappropriate tax, but taxing vices seems to be a publicly acceptable behavior.
Because it's an all-but-guaranteed constant stream of revenue to take advantage of those who are addicted to, in this case, nicotine.

Since this is the thread where I say nasty things about Mayor Menino, he's a very "anti-smoking" politician who is always in favor of further restrictions and taxes on smokers. So now a pack of cigarettes costs over eight bucks a pack in greater Boston. (Non-smokers: That's high. In Pennsylvania, the same pack is about six bucks.) To me, this suggests that Boston's longstanding mayor wants people to smoke. Yet people buy into it, saying things like "look at how concerned he is with the health of his citizens." It's bullshit. He's only concerned with slimming their wallets and he knows it's the one tax hike that a majority of people not only support, but praise.

It's things like this that make me realize that, as awesome of a show as it is, Boss really isn't that far-fetched.
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Busybodies vs. Fun

Post by Deacon » Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:05 am

Arres wrote:I'm not sure if the ATF should have jurisdiction over those who are dodging STATE tax (although the fact that it's tobacco is probably what brings them in).
It's a double whammy: tobacco, yes, but specifically in this case it involves interstate commerce and thus falls under the jurisdiction of the federal DOJ.
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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

Post by collegestudent22 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:01 pm

Arres wrote:Incidentally CS22, Democracy is the END PRODUCT of your anarchist ideal.
Democracy is as far away as is possible from a system that is based upon a strict defense of property rights.
We have majority agreed on a single group to defer to, and furthermore agreed that the minority (you) can't fuck up the system by dropping out of it.
That is tyranny, pure and simple. Further, historically, the opposite idea has driven men to take action. The War of Succession From Great Britain, for instance. (Or are you a proper British citizen?) Or the failed War of Succession From the United States.
Since anarchy is at it's very core might makes right, you lose.
Anarchy is a lack of rulers. It is not "might makes right", nor is it "chaos". Individual sovereignty is not this. There are, once again, historical examples of individuals, absent government, forming systems based in individual sovereignty without certain groups imposing their will on others.
I think chances are good that the taxes are NOT paid, and that is the problem.
They aren't, and it is one of the most wonderful things on the planet. Free men and women seeking to profit from alleviating their fellows from the theft of the state.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: Busybodies vs. Fun

Post by Deacon » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:14 pm

collegestudent22 wrote:War of Succession From the United States.
It's secession. The difference is both enormous and somewhat comical.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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