Privatization

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Re: Privatization

Post by Deacon » Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:49 pm

Yes, you can't say, "For example, some esoteric thing." Instead, you should explain what's going on, what it used to be like, and what about how it is now that you dislike.
collegestudent22 wrote:And while it does, people that have an entitled attitude (somewhat like what seems to be coming across in your post) demand more and more from the government, despite its financial insolvency.
I will point out that in reality they are demanding more and more entitlement programs from their neighbors. To me this is one of the biggest problems with it all: "the government" is some big, faceless entity with unlimited funds, so why shouldn't someone demand free everything? Why not get their hands on a slice of that enormous pie, right? People who preach socialism or communism or whatever between those endpoints are generally either not productive members of society, haven't made the connection that those who pay for it are their neighbors, their family, and themselves, or are wealthy to the point where money doesn't hold much meaning in numbers without a couple commas. There are a handful of hardcore ideologues that are True Believers who are hardworking people even though they're fully aware of its impact on themselves and their family, sure, but we're talking some extremely rare stuff, here.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

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Re: Privatization

Post by morningsun » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:40 am

Actually, I can pay my health insurance myself but who can guarantee that this will be the fact in the future? What makes me hesitate with my plans for green card application is the lack of security (I don't think that you ever had to draw on public well fare if you think the medical supply is adequate) Looking at the economic situation nothing is certain at the moment. Though I have a good and well payed job at present, what about tomorrow or next year? So many people have lost their jobs through no fault of their own but because some stockbrokers liked to gamble on a grand scale.
If I lose my job at the moment, I'm not about to sink into poverty because my child needs an expensive surgery that these programs for uninsured people don't cover. But what if this happens a few years after moving to the States?
Last edited by Martin Blank on Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited to remove unnecessary link to commercial site.

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Re: Privatization

Post by collegestudent22 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:15 am

morningsun wrote:Actually, I can pay my health insurance myself but who can guarantee that this will be the fact in the future? What makes me hesitate with my plans for green card application is the lack of security (I don't think that you ever had to draw on public well fare if you think the medical supply is adequate) Looking at the economic situation nothing is certain at the moment. Though I have a good and well payed job at present, what about tomorrow or next year? So many people have lost their jobs through no fault of their own but because some stockbrokers liked to gamble on a grand scale.
That is SO far removed from the actual events of the last decade that I don't know where to begin. Frankly, the medical "supply" in the United States is much better than other areas of the world, including most European countries where healthcare is provided by the government (after months of waiting, once you get past the rationing).

And if the economic situation is THAT precarious, then government healthcare will only make it worse. Every dollar that goes out of a company's bank account to pay for healthcare taxes (or any other taxes) is another dollar they cannot use to hire those people that need the jobs and resultant healthcare.
If I lose my job at the moment, I'm not about to sink into poverty because my child needs an expensive surgery that these programs for uninsured people don't cover. But what if this happens a few years after moving to the States?
If your child absolutely needs the surgery, then it will be provided. The problem arises when things that AREN'T absolutely necessary - say implanting tubes into a child's ear to lessen the frequency and severity of ear infections - is what you are referring to. Hospitals are required in the US to cover emergency care for anyone that comes to the ER without insurance.

The fact of the matter is, if I have to pay for your healthcare, I can't afford my own. There isn't enough money around to provide everything for everyone by taking it from others. If you actually end up "sinking into poverty" (which is a little disingenuous, because even at the poverty line, a person in the US makes more than people in 2/3 of the world) then there are many people able and willing to help you out with charitable giving. Churches, the Salvation Army, etc. The list of charitable organizations goes on and on. Sure, it isn't as good a life as owning your own house and everything, but forcing people to be charitable through taxation and income redistribution only results in LESS charitable giving, more money lost in bureaucracy, a weaker economy, and higher unemployment.


Further problems arise when the conditions for diagnosing mental diseases are so lax, allowing pharmaceutical companies to basically "invent" new diseases (like ADD or SAD) so they can sell a drug for it. And of course, the populace buys the bull and medical costs keep going up.
Last edited by Martin Blank on Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited to remove unnecessary link to commercial site in quote from previous post.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
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Re: Privatization

Post by Springy » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:52 pm

collegestudent22 wrote: If your child absolutely needs the surgery, then it will be provided. The problem arises when things that AREN'T absolutely necessary - say implanting tubes into a child's ear to lessen the frequency and severity of ear infections - is what you are referring to. Hospitals are required in the US to cover emergency care for anyone that comes to the ER without insurance.
As someone who has permanent hearing damage from constant infections as a child, I can tell you those tubes are very necessary. If it wasn't for the tubes I would most likely be completely deaf in my right ear, and nearly deaf in my left ear. That surgery, in my opinion, was very necessary for the quality of my life. I can now hear without the aid of a hearing device. That small surgery saved the government thousands of dollars. If I were deaf I would need expensive hearing aids, I would have needed to go to a special school, or have had a translator on hand at all times, my job prospects would be a lot more dire and I would probably have needed to be on government assistance at some point.

It's the small things like putting tubes into someone's ears that can make a huge difference. If my friend's sister hadn't been checked out for severe head pain the hospital would have never caught the small brain tumor she had that was growing. Thankfully, they caught it early enough and were able to operate immediately.

Hospitals would not need to perform as much emergency care if more preventative care options are in place. If I get chest pains and find out I'm on track for a severe heart attack my doctor can help prevent that heart attack, and help prevent an expensive bypass surgery.

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Re: Privatization

Post by collegestudent22 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:32 pm

Springy wrote:
collegestudent22 wrote: If your child absolutely needs the surgery, then it will be provided. The problem arises when things that AREN'T absolutely necessary - say implanting tubes into a child's ear to lessen the frequency and severity of ear infections - is what you are referring to. Hospitals are required in the US to cover emergency care for anyone that comes to the ER without insurance.
As someone who has permanent hearing damage from constant infections as a child, I can tell you those tubes are very necessary. If it wasn't for the tubes I would most likely be completely deaf in my right ear, and nearly deaf in my left ear. That surgery, in my opinion, was very necessary for the quality of my life.
As someone who has permanent hearing damage BECAUSE of those tubes, I can tell you that it could happen either way. Most children with tubes will not and do not get hearing damage from ear infections, and "quality of life" is not a concern of the government - lifesaving care is their purview, and that's it.
It's the small things like putting tubes into someone's ears that can make a huge difference.
Yeah, like for me, it resulted in destruction of my right eardrum, and the need for reconstruction surgery. That "small surgery" cost my insurance thousands of extra dollars.
Hospitals would not need to perform as much emergency care if more preventative care options are in place. If I get chest pains and find out I'm on track for a severe heart attack my doctor can help prevent that heart attack, and help prevent an expensive bypass surgery.
For one, most emergency care is for things that aren't preventable by prior care. Workplace accidents and the like. Also, by the time you get chest pains for a heart attack - you are having the heart attack. Call 911 (or the equivalent).
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: Privatization

Post by Seraphim » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:00 pm

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... 1rank.html

180 United States 6.14

181 Northern Mariana Islands 5.89

182 Cuba 5.72

...

224 Monaco 1.78


Health care could be worse, but it could be much better. I think what it comes down to is that, it's the best care if you're rich, it's pretty good if you're middle class, but if you're poor it's some of the worst. You can claim that's the way it should be if you want, but that's a highly unequal system, and it's kind of tough to convince me that you deserve to loose a child because you're only a janitor or only a farmer.

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Re: Privatization

Post by collegestudent22 » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:11 pm

And you realize where those numbers come from, right? The WHO. And where do they get them? Reports from the countries. You really believe that countries like Cuba don't fudge the numbers to look better? Many countries, including certain European states and Japan, only count as live births cases where an infant breathes at birth, which makes their reported IMR numbers somewhat lower and raises their rates of perinatal mortality, whereas the WHO and the US count any sign of life as a live birth (regardless of amount of gestation or size, as well) - increasing the numbers due to the occasional birth where the infant moves, but does not breathe and dies of suffocation.

And the rate is highly variable inside the US, anyway. The numbers depend a lot on where you live and what kind of conditions exist for the child, and not just on the healthcare available.

Another seemingly paradoxical finding is that when countries with poor medical services introduce new medical centers and services, instead of declining the reported IMRs often increase for a time. The main cause of this is that improvement in access to medical care is often accompanied by improvement in the registration of births and deaths. Deaths that might have occurred in a remote or rural area and not been reported to the government might now be reported by the new medical personnel or facilities. Thus, even if the new health services reduce the actual IMR, the reported IMR may increase.

(information from Wikipedia)
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: Privatization

Post by adciv » Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:31 pm

I'll add another difference to that. The US includes all premature children in the count while many other countries do not. How many think this kid would have been included if the mother hadn't insisted on a birth certificate.
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Re: Privatization

Post by Seraphim » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:49 pm

The U.S. doesn't necessarily count infant mortality from babies not born in hospitals, of which there are many in this country. In Detroit it's not uncommon for people not to have birth certificates because they were born by a midwife. When you have such a large portion of people without health care, how would every baby really be counted?

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Re: Privatization

Post by collegestudent22 » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:03 pm

Seraphim wrote:The U.S. doesn't necessarily count infant mortality from babies not born in hospitals, of which there are many in this country. In Detroit it's not uncommon for people not to have birth certificates because they were born by a midwife. When you have such a large portion of people without health care, how would every baby really be counted?
No country has all its babies born in hospitals - sometimes they just don't make it in time. However, given that it is counted as "emergency care", EVERYONE who goes to the hospital will have their babies born, regardless of insurance. Most babies are born in hospitals in the US, just as in Europe and Canada. And you are really being misleading with the phrase "without healthcare". In the US, no one is "without healthcare". They are "without insurance", without which you cannot get some kinds of healthcare, but the basic level of healthcare is provided by hospitals even if you have no insurance, and written off as a loss.

And does anyone actually live in Detroit anymore? Seriously, though. You don't have to be born in a hospital to get a birth certificate. And birth certificates are a necessary document needed to be authorized for employment in the US (as you either need some sort of birth certificate or a document that itself requires the birth certificate - like a passport). At least that's the way it was last time I filled out an I-9 Employment Eligibility Verification form.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: Privatization

Post by adciv » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:27 pm

Seraphim wrote:The U.S. doesn't necessarily count infant mortality from babies not born in hospitals, of which there are many in this country. In Detroit it's not uncommon for people not to have birth certificates because they were born by a midwife. When you have such a large portion of people without health care, how would every baby really be counted?
Aside from what CS22 said, where are you getting your information from? Regardless of where someone is born in the US, they get a birth certificate from the local government. Deaths are counted regardless as they all required to be reported, born in a hospital or not.
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Re: Privatization

Post by Seraphim » Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:54 pm

adciv wrote: Aside from what CS22 said, where are you getting your information from? Regardless of where someone is born in the US, they get a birth certificate from the local government. Deaths are counted regardless as they all required to be reported, born in a hospital or not.
oh well if it's the law that changes everything. Yup in a nation that's put more people in prison than any other power ever, clearly the law is absolute.
collegestudent22 wrote: And you are really being misleading with the phrase "without healthcare". In the US, no one is "without healthcare". They are "without insurance", without which you cannot get some kinds of healthcare, but the basic level of healthcare is provided by hospitals even if you have no insurance, and written off as a loss.
Hahahahaa. Are you or no one you know poor? It's only free if you give a fake name that they can't charge you a bunch of debt for. Which is technically illegal, but of course people do it anyway to avoid becoming one of those people tens of thousands of dollars in debt for medical bills.

Hey what about mass purchasing power? The more you buy of something the cheaper you get it, this is the basis of such bulk stores as Costco. Same thing works for medicine, so why not have a national medicine plan that buys medicine cheaply and distributes it to those in need, at cost, like every other first world country?

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Re: Privatization

Post by adciv » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:02 pm

Seraphim wrote:oh well if it's the law that changes everything. Yup in a nation that's put more people in prison than any other power ever, clearly the law is absolute.
So, you have nothing to back up your statement. Come back when you actually want debate instead of rhetoric.
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Re: Privatization

Post by collegestudent22 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:42 pm

Seraphim wrote:
collegestudent22 wrote: And you are really being misleading with the phrase "without healthcare". In the US, no one is "without healthcare". They are "without insurance", without which you cannot get some kinds of healthcare, but the basic level of healthcare is provided by hospitals even if you have no insurance, and written off as a loss.
Hahahahaa. Are you or no one you know poor? It's only free if you give a fake name that they can't charge you a bunch of debt for. Which is technically illegal, but of course people do it anyway to avoid becoming one of those people tens of thousands of dollars in debt for medical bills.
You really aren't listening are you? Emergency and life-saving care is REQUIRED, by law, to be written off as a loss by hospitals if they treat the uninsured, and it is also REQUIRED, by law, that they provide that care to ANYONE who goes to the ER.
Hey what about mass purchasing power? The more you buy of something the cheaper you get it, this is the basis of such bulk stores as Costco. Same thing works for medicine, so why not have a national medicine plan that buys medicine cheaply and distributes it to those in need, at cost, like every other first world country?
THAT is not how it works. Hospitals already buy in bulk to provide those medicines, and then the individual doesn't need tons of medicine all at once. Also, much of the cost is labor. You aren't going to get a discount from the mechanic if you buy multiple repairs at once - they need to pay the mechanics. Or doctors, in this case. This is the same problem with the Medicare system - it undercuts the price and shunts it onto private plans.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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Re: Privatization

Post by collegestudent22 » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:30 pm

Martin Blank wrote: The USPS has only recently had financial problems. Its only subsidy has been that it doesn't pay income taxes, but it has generally run a profit for a very long time. It is only recently that it's run into problems,

But there's a reason for this. The USPS is not allowed to stop service to those residents who are difficult (and thus money-losing) to reach. Every person in the US, no matter where they live, must be served by the USPS. It may not be to-the-porch delivery, but it still has to happen. At some point, the USPS almost certainly will become subsidized, but that's one part that I don't really have a problem with. You won't find UPS or FedEx picking up the slack because they would have to provide service to highly unprofitable locations.
The cost of running the USPS? Almost 80% of it is labor, because of the union. And they want more. I have trouble believing that the problem is those people living in Nowhere, AK, that receive tons of letters. UPS or FedEx would most certainly pick up the slack, because they DON'T have the union beating them into oblivion.
Frédéric Bastiat wrote:And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.
Count Axel Oxenstierna wrote:Dost thou not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?

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