FIFA World Cup 2014

Play it? Watch it? Listen to it? Post it! Discuss Movies, TV, DVDs, CDs, and Evangelion! Compare Computer, Video, Pen & Paper, Sports, and any other games you want. Most anything entertaining is fair game.
User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 44205
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: FIFA World Cup 2014

Post by Deacon » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:38 am

For those who were wondering, the San Antonio Spurs made a good case for basketball taking over as the beautiful game.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
Rorschach
The Immoral Immortal
Posts: 17734
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:35 am
Gender: Male
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: FIFA World Cup 2014

Post by Rorschach » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:21 am

The Cid wrote:
Rorschach wrote:That's interesting. I'd like to see your source for that.
If you're mad that I'm omitting Scotland, sorry. I had thought making what is frankly an obvious point would be easier than this.
What point? I'm not arguing that the US doesn't like soccer. Not to be rude, but paraphrasing someone else: I don't care if you like footbal, loathe it, or masturbate screaming its name.

My point was simply that you cannot say the US likes football 'considerably more than lots of other countries. (Including India, China, and every English speaking nation that isn't England.)'.

The average attendance at MLS games in 2012 was 18,807 in a nation of approximately 318 million (not counting Canada).
The average attendance at SPL games in 2012 was 10,020 in a nation of approximately 5 million people.
The Australian league averaged 12,347 in a nation of approximately 24 million.

Yes, I'm that bored at work.

Ghana next, eh? That might be a bit of a banana skin. :P
To Let

User avatar
The Cid
Redshirt
Posts: 7150
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: The Suncoast

Re: FIFA World Cup 2014

Post by The Cid » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:49 pm

Again: I forgot to count Scotland as a country and I'm sorry. If that's what you wanted I'll happily admit my mistake, as it's a glaring error. As for the rest of it?
Rorschach wrote:My point was simply that you cannot say the US likes football 'considerably more than lots of other countries.
Why not? Because of our reputation with this sport we'll never be more passionate than a couple of nations whose sporting priorities are elsewhere? Sorry, but China and India were thrown in there deliberately. We definitely make more noise in this sport and in the stands. Especially on the international level.

As for attendance numbers, let me add in some more. Here are some average attendance figures from the NASL (not the one Pele was in), America's second tier league. Keep in mind that in Indianapolis they weren't supporting a march to MLS, we don't do promotion.

Then there are our broadcasts of European matches. NBC's sports coverage now includes the English Premier League, and on Championship Sunday a fair portion of the cable choices were EPL matches broadcast live. Ten channels did that for the last day of their season, and ratings were up. The Champions League is nationally broadcast in the United States and draws big ratings. Yet the World Cup rolls around and everyone with a non-domestic accent acts like they need to re-introduce us to the damn sport.
Rorschach wrote:Ghana next, eh? That might be a bit of a banana skin.
See, the tough group is welcome IMO. We might not advance, but again what I'm excited about isn't being at the top. We're not getting to the top. (That isn't to say "we'll never win the World Cup." An American sports mentality is that once a tournament gets to a single-elimination stage, we are prepared for anything and everything to happen.) But then again, maybe we find that we're not far off from a Portugal or a Ghana, two very good national programs. We don't have a Ronaldo, that's for damn sure, but that we're not being immediately written off facing teams like that is such a great sign. We're part of it now. Twenty years ago we weren't, really. That's something to be excited about.
Deacon wrote:For those who were wondering, the San Antonio Spurs made a good case for basketball taking over as the beautiful game.
Certainly it's a world's sport, even if it can't wrangle that title away. (Though so far in this World Cup only Holland has played truly beautifully.)

WORLD SPORTS:
-Pitch Football/Association Football
-Basketball
-Golf
-Tennis
-Hockey (provided water can freeze in your country)
-Cricket
-Baseball's getting there

There are others I'm overlooking, certainly, but there is more than one world's sport.

Also, why don't we hear more from the Spurs' owner? That guy was awesome last night and I feel ripped off that we hear from guys like Mark Cuban more often than Peter Holt.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
Rorschach
The Immoral Immortal
Posts: 17734
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:35 am
Gender: Male
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: FIFA World Cup 2014

Post by Rorschach » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:07 pm

The average attendance in the Chinese Super League was pretty comparable to the MLS in 2012. I think there's 70-odd fans' worth of difference. [edit]Although, I've just realised, there are more than a few people in China...

I'll give you India though. I had difficulty findinfg domestic numbers but they seem to be a shade under 4000
Yeah, there are mitigating circumstances but you could say that about most leagues.
Because of our reputation with this sport we'll never be more passionate than a couple of nations whose sporting priorities are elsewhere?
Did I say that? I'm not being facetious. I'm fasting today and my head's up my arse.

My head's frazzled with numbers, but I'm pretty certain my original link showed soccer in the US to be better attended than basketball?
To Let

User avatar
The Cid
Redshirt
Posts: 7150
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: The Suncoast

Re: FIFA World Cup 2014

Post by The Cid » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:41 pm

Rorschach wrote:The average attendance in the Chinese Super League was pretty comparable to the MLS in 2012. I think there's 70-odd fans' worth of difference.
So if we're drawing even in attendance with a nation well over three times our size, and our national teams are a point of emphasis, is "we care more than China" really much of a stretch? Being less passionate than the US doesn't mean a country doesn't care about the sport.

But this is kind of what I'm talking about. When I mentioned other countries I didn't expect that I would be insulting their passion for the game by comparing ours to it. We're not the baseline, where everyone below us are indifferent. I don't think it's unreasonable to compare our love of this sport to that of China, Australia, or a number of other countries. Given our rising domestic league, our rising national team (and the noise that ensues when they play a home match), increasing interest in other countries' domestic leagues, none of this is particularly outrageous thinking IMO. It wasn't a dig at any of those countries I mentioned to say we've caught up. It really wasn't, nor was it intended as such.
Rorschach wrote:My head's frazzled with numbers, but I'm pretty certain my original link showed soccer in the US to be better attended than basketball?
Your attendance numbers are misleading, period. First, when you're talking about domestic league attendance in any big country, keep in mind that a lot of that country is out of reasonable range of attending any of these matches. With only 19 MLS clubs, not everyone in America has a local team to support. Second, comparing two sports is misleading as well. MLS stadiums have higher capacities than NBA arenas, so it stands to reason they'd have higher attendance.

Most importantly, in the United States we measure a sport's success more in terms of television ratings than attendance in person. This is where our sports leagues get all their money (which some of them then invest in things like Liverpool Football Club). We use two metrics: Local (in my case, how many people watch the New England Revolution, which is not many because the Revolution have terrible ownership and do not try to win) and National (how well MLS/USMNT/USWNT/EPL/UEFA/CONCACAF do on ESPN and our other sports channels). Ratings for nationally televised games are going up consistently across-the-board in all three categories: Domestic league, international club leagues, and international competition.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
Rorschach
The Immoral Immortal
Posts: 17734
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:35 am
Gender: Male
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: FIFA World Cup 2014

Post by Rorschach » Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:13 pm

The Cid wrote:First, when you're talking about domestic league attendance in any big country, keep in mind that a lot of that country is out of reasonable range of attending any of these matches. With only 19 MLS clubs, not everyone in America has a local team to support.
China has even fewer teams in a country of roughly the same size with far less money.

comparing two sports is misleading as well. MLS stadiums have higher capacities than NBA arenas, so it stands to reason they'd have higher attendance.
I wasn't really comparing them more stating my surprise out loud.

I'm pleased America have become such prominent figures on the stage of world football. I am. I haven't taken anything you said as a dig, but you can't complain about people perceiving America as being disinterested in football while, at the same time, making the same assumption about other countries.
To Let

User avatar
The Cid
Redshirt
Posts: 7150
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: The Suncoast

Re: FIFA World Cup 2014

Post by The Cid » Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:32 pm

That wasn't particularly my intent, to say those other countries don't care. Again, simply comparing us to them doesn't mean that. My wording betrays me, but I didn't really mean to put those nations on a level below the United States.

Here we're often bombarded with World Cup jokes, particularly from people in the public eye who are not from the United States. All I've been trying to say is that the days of the United States abstaining from "the world's game" are long, long since over. In fact, it seems like we're in a position where only the world's elite are more passionate and talented (note the "and") than we are. We're never going to be good as Brazil, and we won't live and die with it like England, but it's just that after decades and decades of telling us that we need to like the world's game more, well, careful what you wish for.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
Rorschach
The Immoral Immortal
Posts: 17734
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:35 am
Gender: Male
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: FIFA World Cup 2014

Post by Rorschach » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:02 pm

Fair enough.

I'm off to see how much Germany Vs Portugal I can cram into my mouth before she gets home and tells me to spit it out.
To Let

User avatar
The Cid
Redshirt
Posts: 7150
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: The Suncoast

Re: FIFA World Cup 2014

Post by The Cid » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:21 pm

Just love the taste of Die Mannschaft, do you?
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 44205
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: FIFA World Cup 2014

Post by Deacon » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:32 pm

The Cid wrote:The Champions League is nationally broadcast in the United States and draws big ratings. Yet the World Cup rolls around and everyone with a non-domestic accent acts like they need to re-introduce us to the damn sport.
There's occasionally some condescension felt, but I don't think that's a bad thing. No sport is self-explanatory. If you're new to it, you need those kinds of introductions. And America has a very large number of people who are either new to soccer or otherwise a fairly passive viewer for whom it would be good to be shown or reminded the different strategies and positions, breaking down histories and strengths and weaknesses, occasional reminders of the often alien rules, and so forth. The shocking way in which time is kept is enough to confuse the heck out of people who tend to watch it only every 4 years.
Deacon wrote:For those who were wondering, the San Antonio Spurs made a good case for basketball taking over as the beautiful game.
Certainly it's a world's sport, even if it can't wrangle that title away.
That's not the point I was making.
Also, why don't we hear more from the Spurs' owner? That guy was awesome last night and I feel ripped off that we hear from guys like Mark Cuban more often than Peter Holt.
The owner is similar to the rest of the organization: quiet, classy, hardworking, not a spotlight hog. Additionally, the Spurs aren't a big market team, centered on one of the coasts or in a massive population center like Dallas. And because Peter Holt isn't an obnoxious loudmouth like Mark Cuban, there's not much for today's media to talk about.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
The Cid
Redshirt
Posts: 7150
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: The Suncoast

Re: FIFA World Cup 2014

Post by The Cid » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:47 pm

Deacon wrote:The shocking way in which time is kept is enough to confuse the heck out of people who tend to watch it only every 4 years.
I suppose that in terms of the World Cup, which is watched by casual fans the world over, this probably happens in a lot of the world. But in terms of people who follow sports regularly, soccer is now part of that landscape. Not the biggest part or even close to it, but it's not the afterthought people like to talk about. After years and years of "soccer will never catch on in the United States," it has. There's probably a ceiling as to how much it can "catch on," since we have so many very different regions of this country and those regions have different sporting priorities, but it has arrived. That's all. We're getting there, even if "there" is "maybe we'll crack the top ten in the FIFA rankings from time to time."
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
NorthernComfort
Redshirt
Posts: 2761
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 8:13 pm
Real Name: Alex
Gender: Male
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: FIFA World Cup 2014

Post by NorthernComfort » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:47 pm

Certainly it's a world's sport, even if it can't wrangle that title away. (Though so far in this World Cup only Holland has played truly beautifully.)
Correction: Holland and Germany.

I’m an American who loves the World Cup but doesn’t watch soccer otherwise. I enjoy watching it because of the national flavor. It kind of pisses me off that MLB (my favorite sport) purports to be the World Series when the World Cup can show us what a real international competition looks like.

I don’t think it’s constructive to make generalizations about the popularity of soccer in the US. Anecdotally, it’s gotten much more popular over the last decade among people I associate with. But who knows? Just because people watch the World Cup every 4 years doesn’t really mean soccer is getting big in the US, per se.
"I guess I have a gift for expressing pedestrian tastes. In a way, it's kind of depressing." -Bill Watterson

User avatar
The Cid
Redshirt
Posts: 7150
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: The Suncoast

Re: FIFA World Cup 2014

Post by The Cid » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:44 pm

NorthernComfort wrote:Correction: Holland and Germany.
Again, I'm going to be making a lot of fun of Germany's national team nickname: Die Mannschaft. Which is what Germany just gave Poland.
NorthernComfort wrote:It kind of pisses me off that MLB (my favorite sport) purports to be the World Series when the World Cup can show us what a real international competition looks like.
As another lover of baseball I hope you're both aware and fully supportive of the World Baseball Classic. We're trying to get a World Cup. The last one was really, really damned good, if only for the Dominican Republic vs USA game.
NorthernComfort wrote:Just because people watch the World Cup every 4 years doesn’t really mean soccer is getting big in the US, per se.
I thought I gave plenty of evidence outside of the World Cup. I mean, I watch sports, I'm not making up that soccer gets this level of attention in our sporting landscape. Progress is being made, and the "America doesn't care" crowd still won't admit that. That's really all that bothers me, no outlandish claims or assertions, just the truth. We're part of "the world's game" now. Even despite years and years of hearing people insist that we aren't and need to be.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
NorthernComfort
Redshirt
Posts: 2761
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 8:13 pm
Real Name: Alex
Gender: Male
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: FIFA World Cup 2014

Post by NorthernComfort » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:05 pm

As another lover of baseball I hope you're both aware and fully supportive of the World Baseball Classic. We're trying to get a World Cup. The last one was really, really damned good, if only for the Dominican Republic vs USA game.
I'm a huge fan of this, but the MLB needs to reconsider a more accurate title than the "World Series" ... it's like when beauty pageants give away Miss Universe. Hey, you don't know how hot some aliens might be!
Progress is being made, and the "America doesn't care" crowd still won't admit that
Heh, I guess I care. I like soccer. I just don't think I speak for all of America. Have you met these... Americans? They're crazy! Who knows what they care about. I have never understood "them" and have given up trying.

I am part of the "I have no idea what Americans actually like, because they usually like other stuff" crowd.
"I guess I have a gift for expressing pedestrian tastes. In a way, it's kind of depressing." -Bill Watterson

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 44205
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: FIFA World Cup 2014

Post by Deacon » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:38 pm

I think the "America doesn't care" crowd really means more like "America doesn't shut down to live and breathe this like we do" instead.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Common Crawl (Research) and 0 guests