Major League Baseball 2012

Play it? Watch it? Listen to it? Post it! Discuss Movies, TV, DVDs, CDs, and Evangelion! Compare Computer, Video, Pen & Paper, Sports, and any other games you want. Most anything entertaining is fair game.
User avatar
The Cid
Redshirt
Posts: 7150
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: The Suncoast

Re: Major League Baseball 2012

Post by The Cid » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:48 pm

ampersand wrote:So you're basing your MVP NL decision based on an event the voters had no idea he would be apart of when the deadline for turning in their ballots was at the end of the regular season
If the award is going to continue to contain the word "valuable," it needs to be voted on after the World Series and postseason should count. And if the sabermetricians want to give out their own award to the player in each league with the highest WAR or VORP, I'd be cool with that, but I'm not sure MVP is that award.
ampersand wrote:I think they're pretty close in getting the postseason pretty much spot on.
Agreed, though I'd like the Wild Card teams to play a best-of-three series instead of one all-or-nothing game. That way both teams are guaranteed a home playoff game and teams with depth aren't at a disadvantage.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
The Cid
Redshirt
Posts: 7150
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: The Suncoast

Re: Major League Baseball 2012

Post by The Cid » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:44 pm

It's cold out, the Bucs have lost every game for a freakin' month, I need some hot stove talk pronto.

-I like the moves the Red Sox have made. Shane Victorino is a good signing for chemistry--he strikes me as a guy who would have liked the 2004 team--Mike Napoli (if they ever finish that deal) will mash in Fenway Park, Ryan Dempster is a good back-end starter that gives a reliable performance, and Stephen Drew is a good add at short. I still think, however, that there is something really big on the way for the Red Sox. Maybe it will be this winter, maybe July or next winter, but this is set-dressing for a blockbuster.

-The Angels signed Josh Hamilton. Not sure that was wise. I don't think a team with Mike Trout and Albert Pujols was worried about run production. They need pitching, and this offseason they've actually lost pitching. One of the pitfalls of spending a lot of money: Sometimes what you need most can't be bought.

-I'm not saying Toronto is dumb to go for RA Dickey. Knuckleballers can be great well into their forties. But Dickey's only been great for one year. And he's 38. And the parks in the AL East are hitters' parks.

-The Astros are now in the AL West. I remember when Houston was an NL city and Milwaukee was part of the American League. Now get off my lawn.

-If I had a Hall of Fame vote, I'd vote for the steroid-connected players who have hit the appropriate milestones. I would prefer to put their connections on the plaque itself. Really, it's up to the individual to figure out how you want to regard the steroid guys. Me, I think their connections diminish their accomplishments, but I still consider those numbers slightly more "pure" than pre-integration statistics, which I can't believe still hold water today. (More or less, I find every statistic before the 1950s to be completely useless and irrelevant. Don't talk to me about DiMaggio's hit streak, or .400 seasons, or Babe Ruth, as anything but tall tales. But since I wouldn't kick any of those names out of the Hall of Fame, I guess I would have to vote for the steroid guys.)
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

ampersand
Redshirt
Posts: 7404
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 11:43 pm
Real Name: Andrew Kunz
Gender: Male
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Major League Baseball 2012

Post by ampersand » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:06 pm

Do the Hall of Fame players have say what is placed on their plaque?

User avatar
The Cid
Redshirt
Posts: 7150
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: The Suncoast

Re: Major League Baseball 2012

Post by The Cid » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:13 pm

No. Otherwise, they would have had to loan Rickey Henderson's plaque out to the Louvre by now. A Rickey-authored Rickey plaque would have been great.

They used to be able to tell the Hall of Fame which team's cap they wanted on their plaque in the case of players who played for more than one team. For various reasons, the powers that be put a stop to that about ten years ago.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 44205
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Major League Baseball 2012

Post by Deacon » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:24 pm

That seems like crap. Who decides?
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
The Cid
Redshirt
Posts: 7150
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: The Suncoast

Re: Major League Baseball 2012

Post by The Cid » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:37 am

According to Wikipedia (emphasis mine):
While the text on a player's or manager's plaque lists all teams for which the inductee was a member in that specific role, inductees are depicted wearing the cap of a specific team, or, in some cases, wearing a cap without a logo. The Hall selects the logo "based on where that player makes his most indelible mark." Although the Hall always made the final decision on which logo was shown, until 2001 the Hall deferred to the wishes of players or managers whose careers were linked with multiple teams.
It's only interesting in rare cases where a player played very well for more than one team for a long enough period of time. Reggie Jackson, Carlton Fisk, and Nolan Ryan come to mind, but not a lot of other names are bubbling up. I imagine it will be more of a problem moving forward. (For example: The current HoF ballot features Mark McGwire, Roger Clemens, and Curt Schilling. If any of them get in, the Hall of Fame will need to make a decision regarding which team logo to put on their cap. No matter which team is chosen in any of those cases, someone's going to be mad.)
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
The Cid
Redshirt
Posts: 7150
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: The Suncoast

Re: Major League Baseball 2012

Post by The Cid » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:23 pm

Follow-up to the Hall of Fame discussion:

No players were elected to the Hall of Fame this cycle. None. A group was excluded on the basis of the use of performance-enhancers (Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa), another excluded on the basis of "they'll probably get in, but they're not good enough to get in on the first ballot" (Biggio, Schilling, Piazza). I disagree with both lines of thinking. I disagree with washing all the steroid users out of the record books, and I disagree with the idea that when a player gets in to the Hall of Fame matters. (If the Hall of Fame needs to differentiate between levels of greatness, create tiers. Is this supposed to be difficult?) But at any rate, no Hall of Famers this year unless the veterans committee selects somebody.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 44205
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: Major League Baseball 2012

Post by Deacon » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:19 pm

I'd say they're either good enough to get in or they're not. If they're one of the greats, they get in. If they were a good player in their day, I don't think they do.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

ampersand
Redshirt
Posts: 7404
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 11:43 pm
Real Name: Andrew Kunz
Gender: Male
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Major League Baseball 2012

Post by ampersand » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:35 am

I think it will take a long time, and maybe another generation of baseball writers (if there are any left around) before this matter is resolved. Mike Schmitt commented:
"Curt Schilling made a good point; everyone was guilty. Either you used PEDs, or you did nothing to stop their use. This generation got rich. Seems there was a price to pay."
This might be that price.

User avatar
The Cid
Redshirt
Posts: 7150
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: The Suncoast

Re: Major League Baseball 2012

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:12 pm

Deacon wrote:If they're one of the greats, they get in. If they were a good player in their day, I don't think they do.
You'd think that's a simple line to draw, but then a player lands right on that line and you're struggling to figure out if they belong or not. Schilling is a good example of this: his regular season numbers were well above the norm, but not eye-popping like those of Maddux, Martinez, and Randy Johnson--the three keepers of the gold standard for pitchers in that era. Then you add in his postseason performances, and things like the Bloody Sock Game, and it just fries one's brain. He's about as right-on-the-border of a candidate as you can find.
ampersand wrote:I think it will take a long time, and maybe another generation of baseball writers (if there are any left around) before this matter is resolved.
Players are only on the HoF ballot for so long. These cases will be removed from the voting by the time a new generation of writers gets in. At that point, it will be up to the Veteran's Committee--a group of former players who get to elect players to the Hall when they see fit. The steroid guys will get in when the Veteran's Committee gets their chance at it, make no mistake. Only fans and writers see what guys like Bonds did as some kind of affront to the game itself. Players never did.
Mike Schmidt wrote:"Curt Schilling made a good point; everyone was guilty. Either you used PEDs, or you did nothing to stop their use. This generation got rich. Seems there was a price to pay."
That's an insane point. What were the non-users supposed to do to stop the spread of PEDs? Quit and form their own league, with blackjack and hookers?

What people miss in this morality argument about the Hall of Fame is a good sense of the process that elects players to Cooperstown in the first place. Writers are given a ballot with every eligible player in that year. They can only vote for up to a certain number of candidates, and clearly they don't have to vote for anyone at all. The guidelines they are given are extremely loose, letting every individual decide what they think a Hall of Famer is and vote based on that. There is nothing about not voting for players who were found to be bending the rules. Technically, there's nothing about not voting for players who have been banned from baseball, so they could theoretically elect Pete Rose if they really wanted to.

There's an unofficial set of rules that the Hall of Fame does not endorse. This set of rules seems to really dictate who gets in and who doesn't.

-Only truly exceptional players get in on the first ballot. Sorry, great player who everybody agrees deserves to get in someday (Mike Piazza), but writers half a century ago didn't put in Joe DiMaggio on his first try, so you don't get that honor either because you ain't Joe DiMaggio. There is no other walk of life where anyone votes like this. Not the Academy Awards. Not elections. Not even American freaking Idol.

-If a guy was known as a jerk to writers, make him suffer. Jim Rice was only very recently elected to the Hall of Fame, not because people had to take twenty years to figure out if he was good enough, but because writers couldn't bring themselves to vote for a player who they personally did not like to talk to. By the way, this is going to happen to Curt Schilling. He'll get in, but they'll make him wait, because he didn't always give them soundbites.

-Teammates matter. Here's the career of Catfish Hunter. Here is the career of Luis Tiant. They look remarkably similar, don't they? Well, Hunter's in the Hall, and Tiant isn't. Why? Because Catfish Hunter played on an Oakland team and a New York team that won championships, while Tiant only played in one World Series (1975) and spent much of his career with a subpar Cleveland team. So in other words, the only thing that Hunter had that Tiant didn't was Reggie Jackson as a teammate, which apparently is a Cooperstown-approved quality.

-Count a player's Cy Young and/or MVP votes for or against him as the numbers dictate. Sounds reasonable, right? A guy who never came close to the award for best pitcher shouldn't get into the Hall, right? Problem being that the same writers who elect players to Cooperstown do the MVP and Cy Young voting. So the writers are now truly the gatekeepers.

-Circumstance matters. This one's my favorite. Let's suppose you're a player who had an excellent career in Center Field, but in an era where three of the generation's best players all played CF. Normally, you'd get enshrined, but because other players at your same position were so exceptional, it diminishes what you did and you are no longer a viable candidate for enshrinement. Imagine the NFL trying this one. "Sorry Drew Brees, you don't get in because you played in the same era as Tom Brady and Peyton Manning."

These are the general guidelines deciding who gets into the Hall of Fame and who does not. I'm fine with all of this, only if we accept that Halls of Fame have no real value and enshrinement is largely arbitrary.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 44205
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: Major League Baseball 2012

Post by Deacon » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:38 pm

The Cid wrote:What were the non-users supposed to do to stop the spread of PEDs? Quit and form their own league, with blackjack and hookers?
I'm not really that much into baseball, and I absolutely agree with Cidders, here, but I just wanted to chime in that I adore that you made that reference and the way in which you made it.
A guy who never came close to the award for best pitcher shouldn't get into the Hall, right? Problem being that the same writers who elect players to Cooperstown do the MVP and Cy Young voting. So the writers are now truly the gatekeepers.
Until this whole discussion, I never knew that some group of writers were the ones who decided who gets in. I guess I assumed there was just some committee of players, managers, writers, and whoever else, appointed by the league commissioner, and they just get together and figure it out.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
The Cid
Redshirt
Posts: 7150
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: The Suncoast

Re: Major League Baseball 2012

Post by The Cid » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:51 pm

The Baseball Writers' Association of America does Hall of Fame (and MVP, and Cy Young, et cetera) voting. There's also a veterans' committee, a body much like the one you're imagining, that gets to elect players periodically as well. (This is pretty rare. The vast majority of enshrinees were elected by the BBWAA.)

More surprisingly, did you know MLB and the Hall of Fame are separate entities? Technically, the commissioner of baseball has no power whatsoever over the Hall aside from influence. Now, for the most part, the two groups walk in lockstep, but there's nothing saying that they have to do so. The Hall could elect Pete Rose and Bud Selig would be powerless. (There's an unofficial rule against even putting banned players on the ballot, but nothing says they have to do anything.) Everything we know about the Hall of Fame--really, all of them--is completely arbitrary and meaningless.

How is it that musicians are aware of this and nobody around sports can wrap their mind around it?
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

ampersand
Redshirt
Posts: 7404
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 11:43 pm
Real Name: Andrew Kunz
Gender: Male
Location: Portland, Oregon

Major League Baseball 2012

Post by ampersand » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:24 am

Earl Weaver & Stan Musial have passed away today. Both long standing honorable men and characters long after people forgot their baseball exploits. Wouldn't be surprised with Musial for there to be a memorial at the largest facility they can find. STL isn't going to function well on Monday.
Last edited by Martin Blank on Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Corrected spelling of Stan Musial's name

User avatar
Martin Blank
Knower of Things
Knower of Things
Posts: 12685
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 4:11 am
Real Name: Jarrod Frates
Gender: Male
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: Major League Baseball 2012

Post by Martin Blank » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:13 am

Baseball's greatest greats are slowing heading off into the foggy outfield. Opposites though they were on the field--Stan Musial's class and Earl Weaver's feisty demeanor--they were still two great examples of American baseball.

I really do wonder how many of the current generation--even going back about 20 years--will be spoken of in the same breath as Musial, Weaver, Ty Cobb, Jackie Robinson, Ricky Henderson, Roberto Clemente, Goose Gossage, and so many others who came before the current rosters.

Perhaps one day in the not too distant future, the era of modern baseball will itself be split in two. It may be about time for that.
If I show up at your door, chances are you did something to bring me there.

User avatar
The Cid
Redshirt
Posts: 7150
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: The Suncoast

Re: Major League Baseball 2012

Post by The Cid » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:10 pm

Earl Weaver had the greatest coaching meltdown ever. Warning: This contains a lot of strong language. Considering how much I swear here, just imagine how bad it has to be to get a warning out of me.
[youtube]QWQbN0jFo_k[/youtube]

I can't write anything new about Stan Musial. Everything's already been said. He's one of the most beloved ballplayers in history, and the very symbol of why people say St. Louis is such a great baseball town.

Two legends in one day. Rough day yesterday.
Martin Blank wrote:I really do wonder how many of the current generation--even going back about 20 years--will be spoken of in the same breath as Musial, Weaver, Ty Cobb, Jackie Robinson, Ricky Henderson, Roberto Clemente, Goose Gossage, and so many others who came before the current rosters.
Since you corrected Ampersand's spelling of Musial, I feel obligated to inform you that it's Rickey Henderson.

Players from the current generation (and let's date this back to the "steroids era" for good measure) that will likely stand the test of time:
-Mike Trout, even if he never does what he did last year again. We'll talk about his rookie season for a very long time.
-Miguel Cabrera. Because when you win the Triple Crown, we remember your name.
-Derek Jeter will, without any doubt, be mentioned in the same breath as Ruth, DiMaggio, Gehrig, and the other legendary Yankees. He already is.
-Mariano Rivera is the greatest to ever play his position of closer. As long as that position exists, we'll talk about Mo.
-It's hard for a baseball historian to build "the greatest pitching staff of all time" without including Pedro Martinez. I'd be pretty surprised if we ended up forgetting Pedro.
-Albert Pujols could end up at the top of a few important records.
-Not really a player, but Billy Beane will likely be remembered fondly for his contributions to how teams are run.

And that's just the all-timers. Others will be talked about for decades to come. Some because they are local heroes (Curt Schilling's bloody sock game will live on in tall tales for a long time, Jimmy Rollins' contribution to Philadelphia sports shouldn't be quickly forgotten, the Giants hadn't won a title in California until Lincecum, Cain, Sandoval, and Posey arrived in the Bay Area...), some for controversy (Alex Rodriguez' career is going to be considered "weird" for decades to come, we'll never forget how crazy Manny Ramirez was), some for infamy (it'll be hard to look at a hyped-up Japanese pitcher and not think of Daisuke Matsuzaka). Baseball fans love our strange stories.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Common Crawl (Research) and 0 guests