Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Perspectives on our world and our universe, how it works, what is happening, and why it happens. Whether by a hidden hand or natural laws, we come together to hash it out, and perhaps provide a little bit of education and enlightenment for others. This is a place for civil discussion. Please keep it that way.
Forum rules
1) Remain civil. Respect others' rights to their viewpoints, even if you believe them to be completely wrong.
2) Sourcing your information is highly recommended. Plagiarism will get you banned.
3) Please create a new thread for a new topic, even if you think it might not get a lot of responses. Do not create mega-threads.
4) If you think the subject of a thread is not important enough to merit a post, simply avoid posting in it. If enough people agree, it will fall off the page soon enough.
Post Reply
User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 43890
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by Deacon » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:32 pm

Your argument is as groundless as those who ask smugly if there are racists in America then how did Obama get elected.

What's the term for that particular logical fallacy? I honestly can't remember.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
The Cid
Crazy Person
Posts: 7141
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:01 pm

And your personal experience of being called a racist because you dared to disagree with President Obama (why is it nobody ever called him that?) somehow supercedes my experience of doing so a lot and never, not one time, being called that. So your constant assertions that "disagreeing with Obama means you get called a racist," well, that's sure as Hell not my experience. But your experience is a valid argument here, never mine. See, in my experience you could easily disagree with the president to the face of his own supporters and NOT get called racist. I must be brainwashed and not worth considering at all.

Or maybe you're right. Maybe we should eradicate all the people who oppose you before their Machiavellian plans undo your very way of life. We sure as Hell wouldn't want you to be uncomfortable.

But please, give me the term. Since it's so much easier to talk about the structure of one's argument than actually treat me as a person with an opinion worth considering.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 43890
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by Deacon » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:30 pm

You're telling me this is the first you've heard of it? That you're unaware of the common occurrence among everyday people and TV pundits alike, where those who disagreed with Obama's policies and political initiatives were written off as simply being racist?

Because it sounds like, "If something hasn't happened to me personally, it hasn't happened." You may have never been mugged, but that doesn't mean muggings don't happen.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
The Cid
Crazy Person
Posts: 7141
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:41 pm

I'm saying if it were as universal as you swear it is, it's funny that I've yet to encounter such a thing as I found myself opposed to a lot of what the last president did, especially as it relates to small business ownership. Now I know, this isn't a point worth ever replying to with anything other than "this is not how to argue on the internet," but as long as we keep doing laps I'm going to point out that absolutely nothing in my personal experience supports the belief that this stuff is A) prevalent, B) powerful, or C) one of the biggest problems facing our country. It's not just "I haven't seen it," I haven't seen any evidence that it exists at all.

But yet, despite everyone who opposes Obama being called a racist, nope. Never really happened to me. So I guess the people I know, and the city I live in, just aren't showing signs of this prevalent stuff you keep telling me exists, like I have to accept it as fact.

It's not. It's the same discomfort that drives what people might consider PC Culture. You don't want to be offended or confronted with anything, you want to be safe from it.
Deacon wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:30 pm
those who disagreed with Obama's policies and political initiatives were written off as simply being racist?
You say this as though it were universal, and I can tell you for an absolute fact that it isn't. Why does your experience matter so much and mine so little?
Deacon wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:30 pm
Because it sounds like, "If something hasn't happened to me personally, it hasn't happened."
Conversely, your counterpoints sound like "I was offended by someone once and I don't think that's right, they're evil and not worth considering."

I don't see why you can't even consider the idea that maybe you're buying into a narrative. You seem to have no problem pointing out when other people you don't like do it with opinions you dislike.

Consider, for just an instant, why I would be saying any of this. I'm not a Democrat. I didn't vote for someone that the hypothetical Social Justice Warrior I'm certain I will never encounter in reality would approve of.

Hell, I've been called some outright offensive stuff simply for being a Capitalist. Does that mean I need to just ignore all counterpoints to my worldview and write them off as much as possible? Personally, I find it much more important to try and bring the extreme person who believes extreme things back to reality.

And I'd love for someone to admit that extreme beliefs are not exclusive to the political left. And that people have undoubtedly taken advantage of this backlash against political correctness to do active harm.

Moreover, stop patting yourself on the back if you're so convinced you're one hundred percent right and my point isn't worth considering. If it isn't, don't, and neither of us will waste our time ramming our heads into the same wall over and over again.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 43890
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by Deacon » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:14 pm

The Cid wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:41 pm
absolutely nothing in my personal experience supports the belief that this stuff is A) prevalent, B) powerful, or C) one of the biggest problems facing our country.
A) It is.
B) The people on both the giving and receiving end seem to disagree with you.
C) That's a value judgment, and another fallacy I can't remember the name of, where you suggest that if a problem isn't determined to be the single greatest threat to civilization it must be not worth dealing with at all.
It's not just "I haven't seen it," I haven't seen any evidence that it exists at all.
I guess I don't know how to help you, then, if you're going to deny the experience of so many others, and apparently avoid any news outlets and pundits.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
The Cid
Crazy Person
Posts: 7141
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:27 pm

Why not? You have no problem whatsoever denying mine. I'm surprised you haven't accused me of lying yet. If you won't make an effort then I don't see how you get to walk away so smugly, but just know that if you keep feeding me links to extremely small nuisances I'll start responding with every single time I see "PC culture" used as a shield to justify outright xenophobia and racism. I know, you don't consider that relevant to our discussion somehow, but why would you ever consider any counterpoint? You haven't yet.

If you refuse to address the fact that I have never encountered any of this nor do I agree with its prevalence in our everyday lives, if you're going to find every possible way to not even consider that there's something there, and if you're going to keep sending me every minor NOTHING NUISANCE of a damn story so you can discredit the entirety of academia, there is no damn point in continuing this. Or would you like me to send you every instance of someone using "I'm being bullied by the PC Police" as an excuse to justify their own bigotry?

After all, by "my own experience" I mean I have yet to see any evidence of this existing--AT ALL--that isn't words written on the internet by people already inclined to not like those who believe "politically correct" things. I'm not making that up. Nobody I've ever spoken to has suggested that they were dubbed a racist for disagreeing with the president. Not a soul. I've never encountered anyone whose right to speech was removed by a leftist in the United States. Not one time. Not a single example. I don't see it when I go to campuses, and I have to do that a fair amount as college hockey teams play on college campuses. I don't hear it on the radio or see any direct instance of it around me, and this is supposed to be one of the hubs of this kind of thinking. Hell, I am now in a line of work where freedom of speech is mission-critical. So how blind do you think I am if I'm missing all this stuff and it's really there?

It sounds to me like a conspiracy theory. Some New World Order bullshit. You used the word Machiavellian. I think if you really see people who disagree with you that way, it's not political correctness behind America's divide, it's that nonsense. Call it an overwhelming self-confidence that you and people like you are right and good and Them and people like Them are evil and out to get you. It's what led to our political climate. It's probably what led to this fear of all things "politically correct."
Deacon wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:14 pm
A) It is.
Well now that you've asserted it as a fact, that's all you need to do to convince me. Treat me like I have no opinion and then spout opinion at me as fact.

Like I said don't throw out your shoulder patting yourself on the back so hard.

If we are going to continue this I'm going to keep asking you to consider my point of view, at least for a second. If you're not interested in considering an alternative to how you see things, what are we doing here? You don't address my points, you tell me why they're not even worth considering. That's not the same thing.
Deacon wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:14 pm
fallacy
"I don't like the way you're arguing so I'm going to use that to just ignore your points and pretend they have no grounding whatsoever in reality."

Appreciate it.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
Deacon
Shining Adonis
Posts: 43890
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:00 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Lakehills, TX

Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by Deacon » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:48 pm

The Cid wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:27 pm
Why not? You have no problem whatsoever denying mine.
Not at all. Sure, I'm surprised and still skeptical that you've never seen it happen before, you're the one denying it's ever happened. I mean, I guess good for you. If I say I've been mugged, and you say you've never been mugged so muggingd aren't a problem worth dealing with, I haven't denied your lack of that experience while you are denying mine.

Though really you're denying that muggings have ever taken place and thus dismissing it as a topic altogether. You could argue that law enforcement budgets would be better spent elsewhere, but instead you deny there's any such crime in the first place. If I have to convince you that PC exists, and and that social justice warriors have a voice and are influencing policy and culture because you're still not convinced of it, then there's really no point in continuing because I don't think it's possible.
"I don't like the way you're arguing so I'm going to use that to just ignore your points and pretend they have no grounding whatsoever in reality."

Appreciate it.
You made poor points badly. I don't know what you want from me.
The follies which a man regrets the most in his life are those which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity. - Helen Rowland, A Guide to Men, 1922

User avatar
The Cid
Crazy Person
Posts: 7141
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:07 am

Sorry for the anger before, but it's really frustrating feeling like I keep going in circles because nobody's actually addressing the things I say, just the technical form of my arguments. I've tried to tell you repeatedly that I understand how my experience is simply my experience, but you have to admit from my perspective it's hard to get past "I live in one of the more supposedly progressive parts of America and none of this is any life I've lived or even seen." I have friends who are a lot more traditional conservatives than I am (I don't consider myself anything of the sort, more like a liberal with a sense of fiscal responsibility and yes I realize how smug that sounds), they don't talk about being accused of racism. They talk about frustrations when discussing stuff with traditional liberals, but not anything like what you seem to believe is near-universal.

Yes, that's just my experience, but by every account you've laid out here I absolutely should be seeing the impact of all of this if it's real.

As one of my core political beliefs is "being human and having a narrow scope I'm sure I'm wrong about most of what I believe," I'm certain that the reality of things is somewhere in the middle of my this is the buzzing of harmless gnats attitude toward it all and your use of the word "Machiavellian." Which, and I know this is dismissive and rude and wrong of me, but I find that hilarious and can't help but want to mock it.

I think that's our main problem here. I see your side of this as every bit as ridiculous as you see my point of view. And I do kind of get where you're coming from. I just wish you could say the same.
Deacon wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:48 pm
If I say I've been mugged, and you say you've never been mugged so muggingd aren't a problem worth dealing with, I haven't denied your lack of that experience while you are denying mine.
The problem is I've seen people claim mugging in this analogy, but never actually show anyone where they've been victimized. They just assert that they're victims and I'm supposed to take it at face value.

I simply don't see it. I understand the discomfort in being called something you've been conditioned to believe is evil, and I have no doubt people are wrongly labeled "racist" on occasion, but to see a conspiracy and malice behind that are several steps too far. The links you and NC have shown me so far, you might think they back up your view that all this is such a threat, but trust me I'm not ignoring them.

We're going to end up at the same impasse NC and I reached. It's impossible for me to believe in the threat this stuff poses.

Let me be clear: You've both convinced me that an extreme contingent of the left does, in fact, exist that wishes to do extreme things in the name of good intentions gone wrong. Of course it's easy to convince someone who doesn't consider themselves a member of Team Liberal that people on the far left started with good intentions and ended up with a bad idea, but that's beside the point. Anyway, what I'm still unconvinced of is the menace it poses to you, me, or anyone either of us know. To me, it's like you've tried to convince me Florida is inherently crazy because Florida Man stories exist. Maybe, in fact probably, that's dismissive of me.
Deacon wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:48 pm
You made poor points badly. I don't know what you want from me.
You've made quite a few leaps in logic of your own. I don't know what to call them either. "Competence porn" comes close, but it's more like a Competence Spank Bank.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
NorthernComfort
Crazy Person
Posts: 2721
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 9:13 pm
Real Name: Alex
Gender: Male
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:26 pm

The Cid wrote:Hell, I've been called some outright offensive stuff simply for being a Capitalist. Does that mean I need to just ignore all counterpoints to my worldview and write them off as much as possible? Personally, I find it much more important to try and bring the extreme person who believes extreme things back to reality.
Yes, this is pretty much the heart of it. We're not trying to dismiss everything PC people say- we're trying to identify where views and tactics have become too extreme, and ultimately have become counter-productive considering their original intent.

I'm pretty wary of sticking my toe back into these lovely waters, but what it comes down to is that PC has become a problem, is commonly identified as a problem by those on both the left and right, and a reactionary movement openly makes being anti-PC one of their signature issues.

So, to go back to the original point of the thread: is PC an imaginary menace that we all should ignore / let slide? No. It's a real problem- I believe that's a direct quote from an article that you shared, Cid, and you said that you agreed with the article.

It seems this entire conversation revolves around you saying "This is not a problem" and we have responded with countless examples of how it is problematic, and you both re-assert that it isn't a problem and then try to imply that we are on the side of your political foes. That's just low.
"I guess I have a gift for expressing pedestrian tastes. In a way, it's kind of depressing." -Bill Watterson

User avatar
The Cid
Crazy Person
Posts: 7141
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:43 pm

NorthernComfort wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:26 pm
That's just low.
I could say the same. But I love how much of this thread is people talking down to me. Like I'm a fucking moron and that excuses you from having to consider my point, but enables you to stick around and keep saying "yes it is" with very little illustration as to WHAT this supposed menace IS.

Flat out ignoring me, putting words in my mouth, and never once considering the things I'm saying beyond your pandering "I looked at this from your perspective" (nope, you just wrote off why my perspective isn't real, which isn't the same thing and I still find insulting), I find that all low too.
NorthernComfort wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:26 pm
PC has become a problem
Oh okay, you keep asserting this, it must be a fact and my point has no validity whatsoever so case closed. Way easier than taking an instant--one instant--to consider the things I'm saying.

Of course, when I keep asking what the menace is, well at best I get a long-winded conspiracy theory. Because the PC crowd are manipulators, out to create laws that actually destroy the first amendment. And somehow they are the only people in politics I should worry about destroying the first amendment. And there's no opposite side of people using this mentality to manipulate people, or somehow that doesn't enter at all into the discussion, and I should feel bad for bringing it up even though I clearly see THAT as a BIGGER problem.

Maybe I should post links every time someone uses the PC police as a crutch to justify their horrible stuff. Smugly. And constantly. No matter how small.

I'm at the point where I'm wildly insulted that you two keep just talking down to me while hardly paying lipservice to anything I've said. You don't get to just repeat "it is, it is, it is, it's a real problem" without actually illustrating to me what the fuck I should be so afraid of.

Because I'm much more afraid of the opposite side of this coin and I can't believe you keep refusing to acknowledge that in any significant way. You might as well take a picture of yourself flipping me off and post that.

Stop calling me a blind idiot and actually acknowledge what I have to say. Or if I'm that stupid, ignore me. But continuing to lecture me is just insulting.

Because your experience matters. And mine doesn't count. It's not that you're disagreeing with me. It's that you're treating me like I shouldn't ever say this stuff and that nothing I've said here has a shred of validity. That's so very insulting.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
The Cid
Crazy Person
Posts: 7141
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:54 pm

You want to know what's contributing the most to our political divide? It's not PC culture, it's the idea that people who disagree with your wordview are evil manipulators out to get you.

And you believe that about PC Culture.

That belief, not the culture itself, is the problem. Vilifying people who aren't you just so you can feel better about how right you certainly are and how you and yours are The Good Guys. They don't see things the way you do, so they're out to get you and must be marginalized.

Gee, I wonder how we all ended up so damn polarized. Must be colleges.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
NorthernComfort
Crazy Person
Posts: 2721
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 9:13 pm
Real Name: Alex
Gender: Male
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:07 pm

Here's a nice example of you not listening to me at all in this thread:

April 7th
The Cid wrote:Of course, when I keep asking what the menace is, well at best I get a long-winded conspiracy theory. Because the PC crowd are manipulators, out to create laws that actually destroy the first amendment.
January 26th
NorthernComfort wrote:I think I found one of the critical miscommunications that has been clogging up this discussion. I don't view the PC folks as any threat to free speech, in the first amendment sense. They do not threaten our democracy. They are a constant threat to genuine political discourse within the Democratic party, which is unfortunate, but that's a far cry from being a threat to free speech.
Yeah, I tried to help you fix your incorrect assumptions about my worldview over two months ago. I see we've made a lot of progress.
"I guess I have a gift for expressing pedestrian tastes. In a way, it's kind of depressing." -Bill Watterson

User avatar
The Cid
Crazy Person
Posts: 7141
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:11 pm

That doesn't sound like the earth-shattering problem you make it out to be. In fact, my clear assertions repeatedly in this thread that we have much bigger problems associated with issues surrounding what you think "political correctness" is (remember, the definition you cited makes it malleable, which is part of my concern here, and one of many parts of my concern to which you've paid absolutely no mind because I must be lying) than the PC Crowd could ever provide. Like people using social justice fatigue as a shield to hide behind so they can be an editor at Breitbart and then go on Bill Maher and tell the whole world their hateful crap.

I know you're not going to address that at all though.

But yeah, keep ignoring my point and talk about my argument style. You did it in your first post in this thread, you've never dropped your "I refuse to consider anything you say" attitude toward me, and you have it right now. I'm disappointed I won't be passing your forensics class, doctor.

It's way easier than taking an instant to consider anything I've said. You read the link. I'm guessing because I didn't write it.
They are a constant threat to genuine political discourse within the Democratic party, which is unfortunate, but that's a far cry from being a threat to free speech.
Funny, you came so close to acknowledging my central point that a minor nuisance is being overblown into a menace to conveniently support a specific kind of antiquated thinking. But that would have required not feeling like you're right. Or taking a second to consider anything I've actually had to say here. Why do that? I'm just some moron worth talking down to but not actually discussing anything with.

If you insist on continuing this I'm going to insist that you consider my point of view for longer than the quarter of a second you think you paid it before.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

User avatar
NorthernComfort
Crazy Person
Posts: 2721
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 9:13 pm
Real Name: Alex
Gender: Male
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:18 pm

The Cid wrote:That doesn't sound like the earth-shattering problem you make it out to be.
I've spent considerable time and effort explaining the various negative effects that PC culture has had, and how it has helped contribute to our current dismal political situation. You can go back and re-read my posts, I am tired of repeating myself on this point.

But it's important to note that there is a big gray area between "imaginary menace" and "earth-shattering problem" and if you are demanding that I adhere to one extremist view, I'm sorry, I can't do that.
The Cid wrote:But yeah, keep ignoring my point and talk about my argument style. You did it in your first post in this thread, you've never dropped your "I refuse to consider anything you say" attitude toward me, and you have it right now.
Your argument "style" is pretty impossible to interact with at this point, especially since you continue to misrepresent my views that I have tired to clarify many times over many months. I don't get paid to come in this thread and read and reply to your sarcastic jabs.
The Cid wrote:Funny, you came so close to acknowledging my central point that a minor nuisance is being overblown into a menace to conveniently support a specific kind of antiquated thinking. But that would have required not feeling like you're right.
Again, you misrepresent me by saying that I think it's a minor nuisance being overblown, but if you look at the months of our conversation, that's not where I'm coming from.

I know you HATE it when I say this, but I do understand where you're coming from. I just don't think you really understand my views and/or are deliberately trying to minimize their impact in order to dismiss what I say. Cheers.
"I guess I have a gift for expressing pedestrian tastes. In a way, it's kind of depressing." -Bill Watterson

User avatar
The Cid
Crazy Person
Posts: 7141
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:23 pm
Real Name: Tim Williams
Gender: Male
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:25 pm

I love the hypocrisy of not considering my point of view for a second, talking down to me like an idiot, telling me your experience matters but mine does not, and then acting like you've been hurt by my tone of responding in kind.

It really makes me think you're taking honest time to consider my point of view and you're discussing this with real respect.

I'm sorry for having a view on this opposite your own. Clearly I'm making it up for the sake of being rude and not one aspect of my point ought be considered for a second.
I do understand where you're coming from.
Stop lying and give it a real shot. You've ignored everything I've said as "well you're just not listening." And then you have the audacity to tell me you're humbly understanding me but I'm the asshole. Who the Hell are you trying to score points with? You don't understand where I'm coming from, that's obvious, if you think you've made an attempt at it you have absolutely not, and stop telling me you have so you can feel like you're the aggrieved.

I've been insulted for most of this thread, but never like that. You hypocrite. You accuse me of doing exactly what you've done in this thread. I hope you're awarded points, since you're such an expert on how to properly argue on the internet and I'm just a jackass with no point worth considering.
Image
Hirschof wrote:I'm waiting for day you people start thinking with portals.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest