Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

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Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:06 pm

So I was reading this article about a forum held at the University of Massachusetts on political correctness, and I have but one question:

What world do these morons live in?

I'm not saying the concept of political correctness does not exist, of course it does. I'm also not saying it's a great thing that has wonderful benefits to society, often it's little more than an annoyance.

But political correctness is not destroying anything. People on a certain side of politics seem to believe there's some growing menace there, but it doesn't exist. None of what they talk about exists. I can prove it.

Exhibit A: I live extremely close to the town of Cambridge, Massachusetts. East of the Mississippi, it might be the most wildly hippie-style liberal place in America. Harvard's there, after all. I go to Cambridge regularly. I have never, not once in my life, encountered any of the supposed militant feminists or "social justice warriors" that are supposedly infecting our entire society. Again, this is in one of their hubs, and I don't ever seem to run into them. And trust me, by their description, they'd have a bone to pick with a 32 year old marketing guy and proud capitalist. But they don't, because they do not exist.

Exhibit B: Now I graduated ten years ago, but I went to college in one of the bluer parts of the country. You know the only "safe space" on Northeastern's campus, to this day? It's for religious people to practice freely without being mocked. In other words, it's more for the child of sheltering middle American evangelists--the kind of people mortified of political correctness--than it is for any communities they might not like.

Exhibit C: Louis C.K., Gilbert Gottfried, Bill Burr, Howard Stern, Sarah Silverman, Adam Carolla, the people behind It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, Matt Stone, Trey Parker, and Mel Brooks. All of these people still have careers. Every last one of them has always and will always make their living dancing around lines of this nature, because a lot of comedy comes from there, and they're all very good at what they do. The supposed PC police that ruin everything have done precisely nothing to hurt the careers of a single one of these people.

The people who get mad about this stuff don't matter, and most people don't take them seriously.

Yes, every few years a new word to describe a group of people may come into the world. And those people might strongly prefer being called that. However, there's a long lag time before anyone will get seriously mad at a person for using the incorrect terminology, and for most of the people worried about this stuff how often do such topics even come up?

It's become an increasingly annoying talking point this election season, because Trump has made a lot of his political surge on the backs of fighting that straw man, but that's all it is. There is no politically correct menace. That concept poses no danger to society.

Sorry, just had to vent about morons being morons.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by Deacon » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:51 pm

Anecdotally you may not have run into someone protesting on campus about safe spaces or changing the name of a department or whatever, but I think the broader concern is split into two camps.

1) Stop being a wuss. The world isn't a safe space, and we can't and won't be held responsible for if something "triggers" a reaction in you. Universities already tend to be bastions of leftist hippies. No need to make it worse.

2) I just want to be able to call people Mexicans without having to think about if they're really from Ecuador or something.

The second is just sort of casual racists, not burning crosses or anything, just not really concerned about "what they like to be called." The first seeds the concern about "hate speech" and "hate crimes" legislation and empowering movements Black Lives Matter where people have bought into the idea that cops hate black people and will go around indiscriminately shooting innocent black men for no reason (though keep in mind that twice as many white people are shot as black people, with hispanics not too far behind, which is about right considering the demographics of those who regularly encounter the wrong end of law enforcement).

Somewhere in the middle is lingering homophobia and a malaise around anything trans/bi/non-binary/etc. Thus all the bathroom laws and backlash at Target. There's a diddler/rapist boogie man who'll pounce on your unattended 5 year old and rape them in public if we let those perverts just do whatever they want. My uncle put it, "It just makes sense for only women to be allowed in the lady's room and men in the men's room."

So because it's a swirling mess of stuff on the news channels and social media, it all gets conflated together, and anything new or changing is inherently scary, so fuck PC.

Essentially. That's my super summarized view of it.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by raptor9k » Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:09 am

Those people are far more likely to voice their opinions online than in person. There are plenty of YouTube videos of college students confronting faculty and leadership about their hurt feelings and trying to convince said people to just make life fair (for their particular brand of fair).

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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by FirebirdNC » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:28 pm

I guess I am of the frame of mind, if I don't like what you have to say I don't have to agree. Even in a "group" of people some will want to be called the old word and not the new word because they are ya know PEOPLE. It has always seemed to me that the radical people are the most strident in their protesting while being the smallest percentage. I don't really care if you are "triggered" get off my lawn. If you are a combat veteran and have PTSD because you had actual bombs, guns and people dying on you then by all means I will go out of my way to ease your path. However if holding a door open for a woman is "sexist' and it holds you down well you can piss of with that. I don't think the world owes you to be coddled and told you are special with your participation trophy. Oh god I went all Deacon this morning haha.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:48 pm

Deacon wrote:Anecdotally you may not have run into someone protesting on campus about safe spaces or changing the name of a department or whatever,
Completely fair, my personal experience is of course extremely limited. However, if I don't notice it in the place Liz Warren comes from, kind of hard to believe it's a real growing movement that's a threat to anything or anyone.
Deacon wrote:Stop being a wuss. The world isn't a safe space, and we can't and won't be held responsible for if something "triggers" a reaction in you. Universities already tend to be bastions of leftist hippies. No need to make it worse.
While I don't necessarily disagree with this sentiment, I do disagree that "triggers" are really a thing that's that prevalent on universities these days. It's a straw man so big I'm surprised hippies haven't set it on fire and covered Frank Zappa songs around it yet.
Deacon wrote:The second is just sort of casual racists, not burning crosses or anything, just not really concerned about "what they like to be called."
Okay, but how often are casual racists or somethingphobes confronted with having to use this new terminology? How often does this stuff come up to the closed-minded?

Besides which, they are completely allowed to call anyone they want anything they want, but people around them are equally entitled to call those casual racists out on that if they wish. They can call everybody Mexican, it's just not going to reflect well on them. Frankly I'm fine with it, people like that "outing" themselves to the rest of us seems like a pretty good public service.
raptor9k wrote:Those people are far more likely to voice their opinions online than in person. There are plenty of YouTube videos of college students confronting faculty and leadership about their hurt feelings and trying to convince said people to just make life fair (for their particular brand of fair).
Which makes people so upset for what reason? Do these videos ever end in the professor capitulating? Usually I'm of the impression it's a professor's job to get their students to challenge such things and deal with uncomfortable subjects. The same way you don't get to be excused from a science class because it offends your religion, your only options are "withdraw," "fail," or "learn to deal with worldviews outside of your own." So again, what exactly is so menacing here and what exactly is threatening anyone's way of life?
FirebirdNC wrote: I don't really care if you are "triggered" get off my lawn. If you are a combat veteran and have PTSD because you had actual bombs, guns and people dying on you then by all means I will go out of my way to ease your path. However if holding a door open for a woman is "sexist' and it holds you down well you can piss of with that. I don't think the world owes you to be coddled and told you are special with your participation trophy. Oh god I went all Deacon this morning haha.
But are any of these things actually happening? My whole point is that I believe this is completely imagined. That the idea that there are militant PC people out there, or some powerful lobby of hyperfeminists ready to turn on us all, is just a laughable one.

We imagine these people exist because, well, we disagree with their worldview and it's easy to find a hypothetical "them" to set up. But where is any of this crap? Outside of vocal jackasses on the internet, and trust me, there's plenty of that on the "extremely racist and deplorable" side as well, I don't think this PC movement stuff is a thing. It has no power. Nobody listens to these demands. And the little political correctness we do go out of our way to show is usually more along the lines of "occasionally learning a new word you'll probably use three times in your entire life," which seems very much harmless to me.

Maybe I'm just living in a sheltered world, but again, if it's such a big thing you'd think it would be happening in my backyard, where the supposed whiny academics are a critical industry.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by Deacon » Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:17 pm

FirebirdNC wrote:Oh god I went all Deacon this morning haha.
I can feel your anger. It gives you focus, makes you stronger. Impressive. Most impressive. Deacon has taught you well. You have controlled your fear. Now, release your anger. Give in to your anger. It is unavoidable. It is your destiny.
The Cid wrote:Okay, but how often are casual racists or somethingphobes confronted with having to use this new terminology? How often does this stuff come up to the closed-minded?
It's not exclusively terminology but accommodation in general. And it's continual. When a frat gets punished or shut down because it has a Cinco de Mayo party where everyone puts on ponchos and sombreros, its felt as aggression for not conforming. To the people who object it's a 50's sitcom world. Everyone is straight and falls neatly into a handful of racial categories. There is no difference between bestiality, pedophilia, and gay. Yes, really, that's how they think. It's all just evil perversion. So when a trans woman doesn't want to be forced to go into a men's room and potentially become the subject of violence when the bros realize what's going on, it means they're trying to rape their children at Target. It's a continual onslaught ranging from annoying to horrible and it means this country is losing its damn mind.
Which makes people so upset for what reason? Do these videos ever end in the professor capitulating? Usually I'm of the impression it's a professor's job to get their students to challenge such things and deal with uncomfortable subjects.
Deans do capitulate from time to time, and professors are all too often in accord with the students, or at least are sympathetic to their claimed plight. Here in San Antonio, the Texas law went into effect removing the prohibition of concealed carry to the older over-21 students with no record of drug or alcohol abuse who paid the money, went through the classes, passed the proficiency and written tests, submitted their fingerprints, and passed the background checks to be licensed to carry. Many of them being military or law enforcement, and the rest middle aged men and women who feel strongly enough about protecting themselves and others from madmen and criminals that they went through all that and actually carry concealed on a regular basis. Immediately at UTSA a significant portion of the professors went around collecting student signatures and protesting that they would feel unsafe if someone were able to stop a Virginia Tech style attack. Thankfully it doesn't matter what they think, since they're a public university, they don't get to "opt out" like a private organization could.
The same way you don't get to be excused from a science class because it offends your religion, your only options are "withdraw," "fail," or "learn to deal with worldviews outside of your own." So again, what exactly is so menacing here and what exactly is threatening anyone's way of life? ... But are any of these things actually happening? My whole point is that I believe this is completely imagined. That the idea that there are militant PC people out there, or some powerful lobby of hyperfeminists ready to turn on us all, is just a laughable one.
I think it's just because you're in an area that's already left of center that it doesn't seem like much of a shift. But in other places, feminazis appear to be a real threat, empowered by high profile politicians. And it's stuff like this that just reinforces their assumptions.

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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:54 pm

Deacon wrote:When a frat gets punished or shut down because it has a Cinco de Mayo party where everyone puts on ponchos and sombreros, its felt as aggression for not conforming.
Do entire fraternities often get shut down for such things? That seems like it might be a limited thing.
Deacon wrote:It's a continual onslaught ranging from annoying to horrible and it means this country is losing its damn mind.
These are people to whom we should pay no mind though, correct? I mean, unless there's going to be a Racist Rights movement sometime soon, I feel like such jackasses identifying themselves to the world serves a useful purpose.
Deacon wrote:I think it's just because you're in an area that's already left of center that it doesn't seem like much of a shift.
Likewise, I think this menace is created by people in areas right of center that wish to stereotype those with which they politically disagree.

I just can't wrap my mind around it. What, exactly, is under threat? What is it people are so afraid of?
Deacon wrote:But in other places, feminazis appear to be a real threat, empowered by high profile politicians.
This sounds an awful lot like a conspiracy theory to me, and the term people use for them just makes me laugh. Right, the PC Gestapo are going to come for our...like I said, I don't have an idea.

Certainly it's still okay to tell dirty jokes that touch on uncomfortable issues.

Freedom of speech appears to be just fine, in fact, if anything people are just exercising it more in calling out narrow-minded morons.

I don't feel like I'm at any risk of being oppressed suddenly.

What is at stake here? What shift would I have missed? What is so toxic about all this stuff, other than perceived movements that never existed?
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by Deacon » Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:41 pm

The Cid wrote:Do entire fraternities often get shut down for such things? That seems like it might be a limited thing.
I'm specifically referring to a specific story of a UT frat that was punished, not sure whether also shut down or temporarily suspended, for that.
These are people to whom we should pay no mind though, correct? I mean, unless there's going to be a Racist Rights movement sometime soon, I feel like such jackasses identifying themselves to the world serves a useful purpose.
Well... Yes and no. I mean, some of those people may be people you care about, friends or family. And in general maybe it's worth trying to spread a more positive message and dispel myths. I can't help myself anyway, I do it all the time. And that's all that the PC police are doing: spreading their message, trying to shut down people they disagree with and see as bigots, etc. It's just disagreement.
I just can't wrap my mind around it. What, exactly, is under threat? What is it people are so afraid of?
Change. They're afraid of change. Especially when it means accepting with open arms--or at least tolerating--people who you see as having chosen to be twisted and sick perverts. What's under threat is the ability to ignore that those people exist and pretend the earth is as your magical sky wizard made it to be, and when those people do pop up into your line of site, you denounce them as products of satan and nudge your neighbor next to you to join in and shout "yeah!" as part of a sense of community and unity against those other weirdos.

But a lot of it literal actual ignorance. People don't want gays in the Scouts, for example. Why? Because they're going to rape our kids and probably brainwash them into being gay as well. Because I'm telling you, I don't think you fully appreciate how many people conflate gay with everything else and think it's a "lifestyle" or a choice. Gay dudes? Oh yeah, they fuck chickens. It's bad for the chickens, they usually die, and it's a sick gay thing. Same with horses. Sick fuckers. Yeah did you hear about that one gay dude who was luring kids playing in the park into the bathroom and fondling them and making them touch his privates? Man gay people are messed up! It makes me queasy to see when two dudes kiss.

To them, that's all the same.

To so many people, they were raised on the idea that "gay" is a blanket term covering bestiality and pedophilia, not just homosexuals, and they don't understand the difference and aren't willing to drawn a delineation between them, because it's all just sick sexual perversions that their god hates. So fuck gay rights. I don't want NAMBLA to be legitimized and have rights. Because to me I can't tell the difference between pedophilia and two grown adults in a consensual relationship. It's not until very recently, in the last few years, that it's finally starting to sink in for more people that there's a difference.

And you've got to realize, it's also a manifestation of how incredibly sexually prudish and repressed people are. Think about it, if you didn't know any better and you saw this hot chick, and you told your buddy, damn, she's fine. And he happens to know her and says "EW THAT CHICK IS 16 HOW CAN YOU THINK SHE'S HOT? YOU SICKO." As though the 18th birthday is a magical day when suddenly someone becomes hot or not, and humans don't mature physically before that day. And because they're weird perverts if they admit that a sexually mature person might be attractive, if they find out after the fact that she's not 18 yet, and they're unwilling to admit that the dude working the electrical section of the local True Value is actually handsome as a mofo and I'm jealous of how good he looks in that shirt, because ew that must mean I'm gay, that bubbling cauldron of repression sours and makes them fear and hate anyone who doesn't also have their soul eroded in the same caustic manner, and leads them to believe they must be lurking in opposite sex bathrooms to rape unattended children.

None of it's rational. It's because of the oppressive repression that they sexualize everything, even taking a shit in a Target bathroom, and that they provide a platform for feminazis to shriek about "rape culture" and whatever else.
This sounds an awful lot like a conspiracy theory to me, and the term people use for them just makes me laugh. Right, the PC Gestapo are going to come for our...like I said, I don't have an idea.
For our right to tell them to shut up and not use the government to force businesses to hire candidates that aren't as qualified because they're women or to pay them the same as a better qualified man. They're not just threatening change, they're threatening a shift in the power structure. And when Hillary and Bernie or the honestly distasteful Elizabeth Warren mention it, it's a hotbutton that makes them howl.
Certainly it's still okay to tell dirty jokes that touch on uncomfortable issues.
Nope. Look how many people absolutely lambasted Ricky Gervais for his jokes about Caitlin Jenner's driving and such. The eruption was immediate. There is no separation of the setting of the joke itself versus the target of the joke. Gervais defended it, tweeting that a joke about Caitlin Jenner is not automatically transphobic any more than a joke about Bill Cosby is automatically racist. And the wingnuts on the right are going apeshit as we speak because they claim that Will Farrel (who I've always hated and has never been funny, etc, etc, etc) is mocking people with Alzheimer's based on some story that he'll be playing Reagan in his later years for some movie. Of course, it's really more an issue because they're concerned they'll represent Reagan in anything less than a super hero light, and they're using the excuse that they're mocking people with Alzheimer's, because that's what they think all those other over-sensitive people are doing to them. And of course these are the same people who laughed their balls off at Talladega Nights.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by raptor9k » Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:57 pm

I've noticed more and more articles like this one about comedians not wanting to deal with college campuses because of the PC overload.

http://www.thewrap.com/comedians-avoidi ... -of-humor/

It seems like there are a growing number of college students that don't want to 'do' the real world. They don't want to be challenged by ideas that conflict with their own viewpoints. They want everything filtered for their precious little timid souls. They want to rewrite history to expunge anything they deem hurtful or distasteful. I think most of the concern is that these people are very vocal be it in person or online. They want to use that attention to force other people to conform to their views regardless of whatever else might be impacted. Once they've labelled you it doesn't really matter whether you are what they say you are.

Most of the PC overload I see is regarding legitimate problems in areas that need attention and recognition. Instead of drawing attention to create an earnest discussion on the matter, they're just making people ignore it for fear of being crucified on social media because they don't know all the latest PC terminology or behavioral theories on the subject.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by FirebirdNC » Sun May 01, 2016 2:26 pm

Deacon wrote:
FirebirdNC wrote:Oh god I went all Deacon this morning haha.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:31 pm

At this point liberal-arts colleges have devolved into parodies of themselves and nobody seems to get the joke but me.

Thank god I dodged that fucking bullet.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:46 pm

I continue to believe that none of this "PC menace" crap exists in nearly the form people have convinced themselves it does. It's just talking heads desperate to convince us that Americans Who Have Done Nothing Wrong are "coming for your way of life." It is dangerous, it is not even remotely true, and I'm done even giving it the time of day, much less actually believing a word of it.

I get it though, some people really want to be openly racist with absolutely no repercussion, including anybody calling them out on their backward and antiquated beliefs. So it's a menace that threatens to consume our society.

Even though the outcry was much louder thirty years ago and was easily defeated by the likes of Frank Zappa. Who never once complained and whined about how he "wasn't allowed" to perform in certain places, by the way.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by NorthernComfort » Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:48 pm

At this point the right is using PC to indirectly say they are pissed when called out for being racist or sexist or generally basket-of-deplorables.

And the left isn't really using the term, but at the same time there is a large segment of younger progressives who want to move the yard-line for what is PC and what is not PC and this debate will probably continue to play out for the duration of our lifetimes. If it's not racist it's sexist or able-list (?) or didn't have the trigger warning of compassion or whatever the fuck the kids are doing these days.

Basically we're just all racist and/or calling each other racist. Really productive. Big round of applause for society in 2016.
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by raptor9k » Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:55 pm

That's Racist! or something...brb, i need my safe place. /triggered
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Re: Political Correctness and Other Imaginary Menaces

Post by The Cid » Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:58 pm

NorthernComfort wrote:at the same time there is a large segment of younger progressives who want to move the yard-line for what is PC and what is not PC and this debate will probably continue to play out for the duration of our lifetimes.
The idea that this is new, or specific to the current generation of "progressives," seems out of line with how I remember life when I was growing up, when all sorts of people were offended about all sorts of stuff, much of it intended as comedy (The Simpsons and Beavis and Butt-Head come to mind).

People got wildly offended at Randy Newman for writing Short People. Again, Frank Zappa had to testify before Congress, and I happen to listen to Frank Zappa, it's not like there's a lot of horrid imagery in his songs. Certainly nothing that the people moving those goalposts would find remotely offensive today.

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Not real.

And that's what really bothers me here: The idea that we can just insist something is real and wrong with half of America and a fair amount of people just buy it. That's the kind of nonsense that got us into this election. I think we should rally against it. It's not real. It's convenient stereotyping, and it's only making our divide worse.
That's Racist! or something...brb, i need my safe place. /triggered
None of this is a real mentality.
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